Europe: In or Out

[JC Footy Genius]

So when a government makes its own decisions it's the EU's fault for not interfering but when we want to make our own decisions we can't because the EU exerts too much control? Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Not the same thing at all .They made decisions to break the rules which they signed up to.

The government signed up to the Eurozone project which had certain conditions (on borrowing) which they flouted/broke/ignored. The Eu could and should have fully enforced the rules as it appears to do in most matters relating to our treaty obligations.

 

[beorhthelm]

Ah this old chestnut. I'm of the opinion they're public and transparent and anyone can scrutinise them so what's the need for a signature? It'd be more ceremony than meaning. After all, who on earth could sign off the accounts for an entire continent? It's nonsense.

wow, that's some nonchalant attitude to the financial reputation of the EU. they haven't been sign off because no one wants to the responsibility to put their name to them, which tells us they're likely to be dodgy as Maxwell pension fund. we know there's all sorts of problems within them from various schemes and corruptions, so rather than address the problems, better to ignore them as a nonsense?

 

[cunning fergus]

Is the EU itself corrupt (evidence?) or is it the countries within the EU that are corrupt and still would be even if not part of the EU? Not saying it's not, but I have yet to see actual proof.

They are either at the very least institutionally dishonest, or criminally negligent. I prefer the former as the design of the institutions was intentional so that all the power would be held by a small group of powerful people while the Parliament is reduced to a talking shop.

That's why they fudged Greece accession to the Euro, routinely ignore whistleblowers, continue with the Common Agricultral Policy, ignored referendums in France/Holland rejecting an EU constitution but got all the laws back on the book via the Lisbon Treaty.

When the institution that makes the law is lead by this man, you can only think something must be amiss................

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/14/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-deals-controversy

I'm a cynic though.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So when a government makes its own decisions it's the EU's fault for not interfering but when we want to make our own decisions we can't because the EU exerts too much control? Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Good point, very well made.

 

[beorhthelm]

Is the EU itself corrupt (evidence?) or is it the countries within the EU that are corrupt and still would be even if not part of the EU? Not saying it's not, but I have yet to see actual proof.

we know corruption exists in the EU, for a start there was the fraud in the later 90's which led to resignation of the Commission, though everyone got off scot free.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm a cynic though.

I'm prepared to bet that this is the first statement you have ever made which no one will be able to pick apart in 10 minutes.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm prepared to bet that this is the first statement you have ever made which no one will be able to pick apart in 10 minutes.

OK, let's get to the crux of one of your previous posts - you claim to be waiting to make up your mind as to which way to vote depending on what arguments / deals are put forward. That suggests you are considering voting either way - in what - realistic - circumstances are you going to vote OUT ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

OK, let's get to the crux of one of your previous posts - you claim to be waiting to make up your mind as to which way to vote depending on what arguments / deals are put forward. That suggests you are considering voting either way - in what - realistic - circumstances are you going to vote OUT ?

This I don't know. I've yet to hear a convincing out case. But this doesn't mean my mind is closed to the out argument. If someone makes a good case for going it alone, which is preferable and outweighs all the benefits the UK receives from membership, then of course I'll vote out. Same with my party politics and Labour Party membership. To me they offer the best option. If someone else came along offering a better option then I'll vote for them.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Draft EU deal

David Cameron has secured a package of draft reforms that, if agreed, will allow him to argue that Britain should remain in the European Union.

But the prime minister has by no means achieved all his aims.

If this draft document, which the government says would be legally binding, is agreed, Mr Cameron will argue in a referendum that Britain's relationship with the EU has genuinely changed.

His critics will say - and are saying - that the changes do not amount to a hill of beans. But before he makes the case to the British people, the prime minister now has 27 other countries to convince.

Did Cameron get change in the areas he wanted?

Migration: The prime minister got his emergency welfare brake. But it is not clear how easy it will be to pull that brake or how long it will last, says the BBC's James Landale.

Benefits: While the in-work benefits of EU migrants will be curbed for four years if other countries agree, they will be gradually restored the longer they stay in the UK. EU migrants will be able to send child benefit back home, but would get a lower level if the cost of living in the country where the child is is lower. Mr Cameron had wanted to block all of it.

Sovereignty: The PM has secured a clear legal statement that the UK is not committed to further political integration and that the phrase "ever closer union" cannot be used to integrate the EU further. But it is not yet clear when or how this will be incorporated into the EU treaties. He has also got new powers for national parliaments to block new EU laws but the thresholds are pretty high before those powers can be used.

Competitiveness: The PM has got some language that commits the EU to strengthen the internal market and cut red tape. But they have been promising to do that for years.

Protecting non-euro countries: There will be a new mechanism to get the eurozone to think again about decisions that could hit the City of London.

Security: The PM has got some unexpected gains, making it easier for countries to stop terror suspects coming into the country even if the threat they pose is not imminent. There will also be a crackdown to stop people using sham marriages and other loopholes to gain access to the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35467479

EU view/interpretation

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...02/02-letter-tusk-proposal-new-settlement-uk/

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Sums it up for me. It's really no change at all.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/694516967449980928

 

[ofco8]

With all the drivel in the news today I cannot understand why the OUT vote has not shot up. There is nothing in the negotiations outcome that gives the British people what they want.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

With all the drivel in the news today I cannot understand why the OUT vote has not shot up. There is nothing in the negotiations outcome that gives the British people what they want.

Isn't there ?

I reckon Dodgy Dave has come back with a great deal, must admit I thought he didn't have it in him to deliver.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Isn't there ?

I reckon Dodgy Dave has come back with a great deal, must admit I thought he didn't have it in him to deliver.

Have to say I didn't think he had it in him. Britain in the EU with a hand on the steering wheel. Credit where it's due.

 

[beorhthelm]

Isn't there ?

I reckon Dodgy Dave has come back with a great deal, must admit I thought he didn't have it in him to deliver.

he went in with a very unambitious list of requirements, had a bit of a high profile fight over an issue (in work benefits) that wasn't much of an issue at home. mind you i don't think the British people knew what they wanted, a lot of noise about immigration from one quarter drowning out any broad discussion of what exactly we expect from Europe. the "red card" thing, which remains to be seen how it is implemented, does sound like a positive along with the change of language of future treaties if followed.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

he went in with a very unambitious list of requirements, had a bit of a high profile fight over an issue (in work benefits) that wasn't much of an issue at home. mind you i don't think the British people knew what they wanted, a lot of noise about immigration from one quarter drowning out any broad discussion of what exactly we expect from Europe. the "red card" thing, which remains to be seen how it is implemented, does sound like a positive along with the change of language of future treaties if followed.

Shame, as I was looking forward to the whole of Europe speaking German.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

Is the right answer.

I suspect that whatever deal Cameron gets, Mr Tubthumper will still be satisfied with staying in the eu. Don't you?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I suspect that whatever deal Cameron gets, Mr Tubthumper will still be satisfied with staying in the eu. Don't you?

I will weigh everything up once all the cases have been made. I will act for what's best for my fellow Brits.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I will weigh everything up once all the cases have been made. I will act for what's best for my fellow Brits.

If, and I assume you are being truthful, that is the case then that's a laudable attitude Sir!

 

[Gwylan]

i don't think the British people knew what they wanted, a lot of noise about immigration from one quarter drowning out any broad discussion of what exactly we expect from Europe.

I think this is pretty much key to any discussion. There are lots of reasons for wanting out of the EU: the ability to frame our own industrial and agricultural policy and set our own laws; the reduction of immigration; the removal of our contribution and an unwillingness to support a corrupt organisation are the ones that 99% of the 'outers' will cite. Not sure that any of CMDs' concessions will make a great deal of difference to any of these (although withdrawing from Europe won't affect a couple of these either)

 

[JC Footy Genius]

With all the drivel in the news today I cannot understand why the OUT vote has not shot up. There is nothing in the negotiations outcome that gives the British people what they want.

People have already nailed their colours to the mast on NSC and the undecideds will probably break more for staying in as these momentous, fundamental, clearly defined changes will be presented as the best deal ever by unscrupulous, manipulative so and so's! (+project fear)

I suspect come hell or highwater, Mr Tubthumper will still be satisfied with staying in the eu. Don't you?

Minor adjustment to your quote.

Any person that voted for Corbyn and would like to see the current Labour Shadow team run the country obviously has this nation's wellbeing at heart.