Malaysian airline crash

martyn20 said:

I have not heard of anyone calling for military intervention

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...tion-protect-mh17-feinstein-tells-putin-man-a

Creaky said:

I see.

Don't you just love articles based on, "according to Sky sources", "Sky sources in Whitehall", "sources claimed", all in an article with the definitive headline "Rebels' MH17 Site 'Sabotage Plan' Intercepted"

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It's on the BBC as well if you bother to look, are you trying to suggest Sky made up the story and attributed to the UK government hoping they would not notice

Creaky said:

I think it's highly likely that the rebels were responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airline. There is I agree a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction as well as evidence that it was a terrible mistake on their part. I have seen no evidence to suggest that there was a deliberate intent to hit a civilian aircraft.

What I find disturbing are the calls for various levels of action, from local economic sanctions all the way through to full military action against Russia!

Before any 'reprisals' are put into action I believe it is necessary for all scenarios to be explored - the aircraft concerned belonged to Malaysia and was flying from the Netherlands. These two countries should in my opinion be the lead investigators and quite frankly the USA should back off in terms of political statements and criticism of potential culprits until a full investigation has been completed.

The idea that anyone who questions statements coming out of Kiev and Washington or put forward alternative scenarios are puppets of Moscow is ludicrous.

This entire incident needs to be put into perspective - of course it is terrible that so many lost their lives in such circumstances but to consider embarking on actions that will cause far more to lose their's is madness.

It's a shame that more publicity, diplomatic efforts and practical action isn't being taken in causes that could save lives rather than to cause lives to be lost. On the news this morning there was passing reference to the 219 kidnapped schoolgirls who have been missing for 100 days following their capture by 'rebels'. Why isn't there the same diplomatic concern and discussion of retribution over these children who could be helped as there is over those who unfortunately are now beyond our assistance?

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Creaky, its not calling anyone who plays devils advocate on here or offers an opinion as a kremlin puppet, nor of saying statements by kiev, washington or moscow are more valid. Simply based on evidence put forward, there is much circumstantial evidence pointing towards SAM supplied by russia fired from rebel territory, and subsequent delays and cover up attempts at crash site, multiple reputable sources with evidence including the OSCE point in one direction, so far there is no other evidence pointing in any other direction, just wild unsubstantiated theories many from russian media sources.

to be aware of exactly what is happening on the ground helps in objectivity, i was in Donetsk last in January, have been many times and know many generally pro russian ukrainian citizens who see daily whats happening, they love russia, russian culture/language but not putin or his war on their country....... to know a little of how the kremlin, russian media works also helps, they are never ever culpable, its nearly always sold as a US/NATO plot against Russia, as this type of citizens pro russia seige mentality is rooted in their soviet past and works domestically (as it does to mask truth in North Korea).... Europe the EU is often referred to as facist...... of course we in the EU are not all facists (there will be a small few), and after the fall of Yanukovych the Russian media went into overdrive describing over and over again that it was not a legitimate popular uprising against a ruthless thief of a dictator but rather a US/EU led facist coup, to spread fascisim and force homosexuality on people..... if you saw the banners in Crimea or advertising hoardings in Donetsk just 6 months ago, the local populations who only watch russian TV or read their newspapers websites were generally convinced they were defending themselves against these facists encamped all around them and intent on over running them. Of course they were not real, the far right parties make up just 4% of the electorate, and got nowhere in the election but that was the constant 24/7 media strategy to discredit the uprising and to try and turn the russian speakers against the Ukrainian state. Why? its simple, what the Nazi's did in WW2 is deeply embeded in the psyche of eastern Slavs, to brand anything as fascist or nazi is to push a button of fear that will make people turn against it.... its been used many times, even by Stalin. But many locals really do believe it to be real, simple people like many of my in laws are not used to forming their own opinions or thinking for themselves they are use to being told what to do and think by russian media. They have no other references than russian media and russian media knows exactly how to manipulate peoples deep held emotions and fears.

I don't believe it was done on purpose I believe it was a mistake now followed by a massive campaign of lies and cover up, simply because of Russia's complicity in the greater Ukrainian chaos we are now subjected to this barrage of disinformation. The US shot down an Iranian civilian airbus by mistake, the difference is they admitted it was a grave mistake,they didn't try and blame it on the Iranian government or any other outlandish claim.

You're right that the schoolgirls incident is indeed tragic as is this unrelated civilian victim incident..... my own opinion is that it will make little difference whatever the evidence is, the EU specifically is far more interested in economics and money than morality, feels compelled to talk tough but has no real desire to do anything. Russia will keep on getting away with it as nobody has the balls to stand up to Putin or will sacrifice money for principles...... bury head and hope problem goes away, there's many more Neville chamberlains than Winston Churchills. I dont see anyone calling for full military action against russia, in fact the opposite, military option is off the table....... but sit back and do nothing?

Putin is no obama or cameron, he's a ruthless imperialist opportunist, he will keep going as far as western governments weakness will allow him through appeasement, self interest

It matters not what we think or say. but what we dont do really does matter as this is not going to go away

martyn20 said:

It's on the BBC as well if you bother to look, are you trying to suggest Sky made up the story and attributed to the UK government hoping they would not notice

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No - but I am always sceptical, no matter what the subject, regarding articles stating something definitively based on undisclosed sources.

Aren't you?

Creaky said:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...tion-protect-mh17-feinstein-tells-putin-man-a

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You don't see a difference between military intervention to protect the crash site and military intervention due to the crash?

beorhthelm said:

why not? on the one hand there was (and still is remaining) first hand, live reports of an event by those who did it. on the other you have second or third hand unattributed sources a week later saying something to the contrary. either you are saying those original claims - gloats - are fake or you simply dismiss them. if we accept they exist, what motive is there for them to be lies? none, so we should conclude they are real and true. therefore later, unattributed claims that an alternative event occurred, must be lies. they cannot both be true.

its noticeable that all those reporting the contrary story have an axe to grind against the establishment or generally nailed their mast to the conspiracy subcultre, or are pro-Russian. the conclusion is they have an agenda to either make up or be a conduit for made up stories.

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Not me , I am not pro Russian , I love my country even with the too close links with the US (UK I mean) , I visited Ukraine 10 times now , love the people never had any issues . I read the news from both sides , listen to friends in the Ukraine and bring about my own conclusions , I am 52 and allowed to do that you know .The Pro-Russians 'Probably felled' the US reported , with all their technology is that the best they can come with ?? , after the crash they said they will have 100% evidence who did it within hours ,obviously not .

Creaky said:

No - but I am always sceptical, no matter what the subject, regarding articles stating something definitively based on undisclosed sources.

Aren't you?

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Yes but could you show me a case where Sky or the BBC have reported something from 'sources inside the UK government' and they have got it totally wrong? These are off the record briefings by people on the inside, a way of getting the story out. Not someone overhearing something in the lobby of the House of Commons!

Creaky said:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...tion-protect-mh17-feinstein-tells-putin-man-a

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1) As already said above, they are calling for a military presence to secure the crash site, not military intervention to fight the rebels.

2) This call is coming from De Telegraaf. Don't be fooled by the 'broadsheet-sounding' name. In terms of journalistic integrity it lies somewhere between the Daily Express and The Sun. All intelligent Dutch people think it's a piece of shit.

Creaky said:

Much of the rhetoric coming out of Kiev is overtly calling for help in direct action against the rebels and their Russian support.

The majority of the calls for direct military intervention though have come from various media sources around the world - even parts of the Dutch media have made calls for their forces to be sent to Ukraine!

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sending NATO troops to protect the crash site of a sovereign nation Ukraine that has russian miliatary personnel blocking access to said crash site and openly tampering with it, is not an act of war on Russia its common sense and is on the territory of a sovereign nation that is not russia or russian.

As for kievs calling for support against "Rebels and their Russian support".... do you realise that EVERY SINGLE REBEL LEADER IS A RUSSIAN CITIZEN/RUSSIAN MILITARY OFFICER...... NOT UKRAINIAN.......RUSSIAN.

Alexandr Boradai - Self proclaimed PM - Russian Citizen, from Moscow former investment banker

Pavel Gubarev - Self proclaimed governor, Russian citizen, from Moscow former kids entertainer

Igor Girkin (Strelkov) - Military commander - Russian Citizen, Active Russian Military intelligence officer from Moscow, worked previously in Crimea without insignia, and Syria, Bosnia with russian insignia

Igor Besler - Strelkovs right hand man, deputy commander (who admitted on wiretap to shooting down aircraft), born in Simferopol, Crimea, but is a Russian citizen and served as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Russian army.

There's four of the main representatives of the "rebels and their russian support", i will name another 4 (all russian citiziens) can you name just one who fighting this battle on Ukrainian soil to try and break off part of sovereign Ukraine who is actually Ukrainian?

And as we speak the "Rebels and their russian support", have just announced today they've shot down another 2 Ukrainian fighter jets to Ukraines shooting down of not one aircraft.

Russian military on ukrainian soil shooting down ukrainian aircraft flying over ukrainian soil?

Surely not, it must be a US plot to get the ukraine government to shoot down their own aircraft just to discredit Russia? what else could it be

hans kraay fan club said:

That is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Amazing.

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Why is it funny?

Czechmate said:

Not me , I am not pro Russian , I love my country even with the too close links with the US (UK I mean) , I visited Ukraine 10 times now , love the people never had any issues . I read the news from both sides , listen to friends in the Ukraine and bring about my own conclusions , I am 52 and allowed to do that you know .The Pro-Russians 'Probably felled' the US reported , with all their technology is that the best they can come with ?? , after the crash they said they will have 100% evidence who did it within hours ,obviously not .

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i was referring to the reporting from those journalist that dingodan loves to keep citing, i don't see you claiming that "a source" in the US military has told you there's evidence it was the Ukrainians. But then dingodan would believe it if they said USS Eldridge popped up in the skies above Ukraine rammed the plane. or something.

beorhthelm said:

if we accept they exist, what motive is there for them to be lies? none, so we should conclude they are real and true.

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This is the kind of thinking that conspiracy theorists engage in.

If you can't see a motive to lie, X must be true. This is exactly the same as saying, if you can see a motive to lie, X must be false. It's not true though is it.

News breaking now of another air crash in Thailand

Chicken Run said:

News breaking now of another air crash in Thailand

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Taiwan, but close...

Chicken Run said:

News breaking now of another air crash in Thailand

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Taiwan

dingodan said:

The recordings were posted on the Ukrainian Secret Service facebook page

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hans kraay fan club said:

That is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Amazing.

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Why was it funny?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you think it's funny because the Ukrainian Secret Service Facebook Page is hardly a reliable source of information.

Which was my point.

dingodan said:

This is the kind of thinking that conspiracy theorists engage in.

If you can't see a motive to lie, X must be true. This is exactly the same as saying, if you can see a motive to lie, X must be false. It's not true though is it.

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nice selective quote, missing the context. i was not applying that reasoning carte blanche, it was related directly to the example in hand. pray tell what motive you think there is for a rebel commander to claim the shooting down of a plane when they have not done so. or are you going to dismiss the claims as having never occurred (despite the evidence)?

or will you post a youtube clip of something vaguely related to the topic.

First bodies have landed back in Holland R.I.P.

dingodan said:

Why was it funny?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you think it's funny because the Ukrainian Secret Service Facebook Page is hardly a reliable source of information.

Which was my point.

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I will correct you, because you are wrong.
What I found funny was not the veracity of the information, or the reasons for you choosing to post it.

What I found funny was the very existance of 'the facebook page' of a nation's Secret Service.

Carry on.

Seeing reports on twitter that the 2 Ukrainian jets shot down today may have been hit by missiles fired from INSIDE Russia @PzFeed