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7-1 Why the hell can't England do that?



mikeyjh

mikeyjh

Well-known member
Dec 17, 2008
4,492
Llanymawddwy
Rookie said:
If I'm right you are saying kids in this country are over coached? There is a stat going round of the number of qualified coaches in Germany and Spain compared to us, it's not pretty reading.
Our youth coaches are, to put it bluntly, not good enough. If has nothing to do with being over coached.
I put a thread up here few weeks back asking how many had done their coaching badges, for a football forum the results were pretty low, the FA need to encourage people to take up coaching rather than just going out for a win on a Sunday morning in their kids under whatever game.
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I need to find the right expression - Coached is good, but that coaching has to encourage to think for themselves, to make decisions and to make mistakes. Our senior players, while they may or may not lack some of the technique, they certainly lack the ability to make decisions quickly. They ALWAYS look like they're dilly dallying, so my problem is that we don't need to just increased the number of coaches but the quality of those coaches and the framework they operate within.
 






Man of Harveys

Man of Harveys

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
18,738
Brighton, UK
I don't think there's any reason why England couldn't do that: there's really nothing so magically different about Germany and its football as others might imagine - they're as astonished as anyone else at what happened yesterday, although yes, expectations were higher beforehand and that with some justification.

Would the old saw about having fewer foreign players in the Prem make a difference, even if that was possible? Seems hard to imagine enforcing that.

I've said it before: maybe the best way to improve the England team would be somehow to remove the crazy amount of money sloshing around in the Prem, which in turn creates talented but arrogant underachievers like Rooney or Ashley Cole: bloated on too much money from their clubs. I dunno.
 


T

turienzo's lovechild

New member
Oct 25, 2003
23,964
Uncle Buck said:
They had claims to play for England.

Some of Germany's Poles, Ghanians etc are tenuous. Granted the Turkish decent ones are now German.
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dont see how...as said before both Klose and Podolski both moved to Germany when they were young so have lived there for the vast majority of their lives...and easily qualify via residency. I presume by Ghanaian you mean Boateng? He was born in Germany.
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,366
Chandlers Ford
Cheeky Monkey said:
Don't be ridiculous. Klose was born and raised in Poland. What has that got to do with players with a Jamaican heritage who are born and raised here playing for England? Are you oily South African Kevin ****ing Pietersen or something?
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Raheem Sterling is Jamaican
 






Wrong-Direction

Wrong-Direction

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2013
13,427
Goring Gull said:
Why oh Why can't England do that - Similar League set ups in both countries I don't believe individually Germany's players are that much better than ours. Surely give it a few years to pull together and maybe England could get it right.
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Coz we're shit?
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,633
The Fatherland
Uncle Buck said:
They had claims to play for England.

Some of Germany's Poles, Ghanians etc are tenuous. Granted the Turkish decent ones are now German.
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Me and you have had this discussion previously a number of years ago. Boetang was born here in Berlin. Ozil and Khedira Gelsenkirchen and Stuttgart. All three are and always have been German. Or are you referring to new players?
 




B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Big_Unit said:
A few years ago I took a one-week FA course on coaching kids. It was for ex-professional players only, but due to some work I was doing at the time I got to take the course with them (my 'buddy' for the week was big Andy Morrison, one of the gentlest and nicest men you could ever meet, by the way).

The coaches and psychologists at the FA kept coming back to - unsurprisingly - "the Dutch model". If you're an eleven-year-old in The Netherlands (at an elite club), you play seven-a-side on a small pitch. Every ten minutes or so, the referee blows his whistle and every player switches position - the goalkeeper goes to right-back, the right-back to centre-back, the left-back into midfield, etc. No-one keeps score and there are no leagues.

The startlingly basic point of this set-up is that high performance and 'winning behaviours' don't matter at that age - who, in the grand scheme of things, really gives a toss who wins a local under-12s league? Technique, skills-accumulation and enjoyment are the only valid criteria. Performance and winning are not discussed or introduced until 14 / 15 years of age.

Contrast this with the typical English experience - practice and training involve concepts and values that most kids are way too young to grasp or put into practice. Tiny children slog their guts out on muddy, full-sized pitches, with wingers touching the ball about once every ten minutes. Fathers berate their kids for not 'getting stuck' in, and throw their toys out of the pram when a bunch of eight-year-olds lose a game.

The solution (long-term) is about changing this culture. Give kids a lot of touches of a football. Don't tell them at nine years old "you're a right-back". Let them enjoy and express themselves. And perhaps most importantly, remove results / performance / winning from the equation until an appropriate age.

My impression form the coaches was that they'd tried to bring these changes about, but the prevailing culture just wouldn't allow it. It was too difficult to shift the thinking of amateur coaches and parents.
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Just a note of caution, having lived and experienced both the footballing culture of Dutch and German football there seems to be a more deep rooted problem.

Please do not think if you rock up to a random Dutch or German under 10 game that you are likely to see a wholly different experience that we generate here in this country, do you remember the linesman being murdered recently at a youth game in Holland.

But something is intrinsically different in what those nationalities appreciate, demand and enjoy when watching football at all levels, they really loathe unskilled actions, such as aimless passes, whilst each nationality have a deep feeling of appreciation of the more refined aspects of the game, technical moves and passing movement, which inevitably creates environments where those kind of players thrive.

This is the core difference, we enjoy different attributes and therefore we create different players.
 


P

portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,619
portslade
Sadly even our best players would not make it into the German 1st team, might sneek in as a Sub. Our football is light years away from what Germany produced last night. If we had been playing Brazil they would be in the final now
 


drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,070
Burgess Hill
Big_Unit said:
A few years ago I took a one-week FA course on coaching kids. It was for ex-professional players only, but due to some work I was doing at the time I got to take the course with them (my 'buddy' for the week was big Andy Morrison, one of the gentlest and nicest men you could ever meet, by the way).

The coaches and psychologists at the FA kept coming back to - unsurprisingly - "the Dutch model". If you're an eleven-year-old in The Netherlands (at an elite club), you play seven-a-side on a small pitch. Every ten minutes or so, the referee blows his whistle and every player switches position - the goalkeeper goes to right-back, the right-back to centre-back, the left-back into midfield, etc. No-one keeps score and there are no leagues.

The startlingly basic point of this set-up is that high performance and 'winning behaviours' don't matter at that age - who, in the grand scheme of things, really gives a toss who wins a local under-12s league? Technique, skills-accumulation and enjoyment are the only valid criteria. Performance and winning are not discussed or introduced until 14 / 15 years of age.

Contrast this with the typical English experience - practice and training involve concepts and values that most kids are way too young to grasp or put into practice. Tiny children slog their guts out on muddy, full-sized pitches, with wingers touching the ball about once every ten minutes. Fathers berate their kids for not 'getting stuck' in, and throw their toys out of the pram when a bunch of eight-year-olds lose a game.

The solution (long-term) is about changing this culture. Give kids a lot of touches of a football. Don't tell them at nine years old "you're a right-back". Let them enjoy and express themselves. And perhaps most importantly, remove results / performance / winning from the equation until an appropriate age.

My impression form the coaches was that they'd tried to bring these changes about, but the prevailing culture just wouldn't allow it. It was too difficult to shift the thinking of amateur coaches and parents.
Click to expand...


Can you tell me where you have seen kids in the last couple of years playing on full size pitches in 11 a side competitions?
 








C

Cheeky Monkey

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
23,044
Man of Harveys said:
CM's getting pounded so often, we should change his username to Julio Cesar.
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Why not just call me a tedious, self obsessed Deutschlander bore who talks about himself in the third person and who wouldn't get my admittedly unhinged attempt at humour if it was staring Kevin Pietersen in his oily South African ball sack!
 




Uncle Buck

Uncle Buck

Ghost Writer
Jul 7, 2003
28,071
Herr Tubthumper said:
Me and you have had this discussion previously a number of years ago. Boetang was born here in Berlin. Ozil and Khedira Gelsenkirchen and Stuttgart. All three are and always have been German. Or are you referring to new players?
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I am aware the Turkish ones are German born as the Germans now tend to recognise the Turkish immigrants a bit more.
 






beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,315
Leekbrookgull said:
After all these posts,pleased rest assured the FA intend to do nothing,after all what do they know ?
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after all these posts, its noted that noone has brought up the FA's recent proposals, which we as fans roundly turned on and dismissed. no one really want to do whats necessary, we just want to blame someone (FA/Sky/Players/Barber, anyone really)
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,633
The Fatherland
Cheeky Monkey said:
Why not just call me a tedious, self obsessed Deutschlander bore who talks about himself in the third person and who wouldn't get my admittedly unhinged attempt at humour if it was staring Kevin Pietersen in his oily South African ball sack!
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Keep trying with the humour.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,633
The Fatherland
Cheeky Monkey said:
Why not just call me a tedious, self obsessed Deutschlander bore who talks about himself in the third person and who wouldn't get my admittedly unhinged attempt at humour if it was staring Kevin Pietersen in his oily South African ball sack!
Click to expand...

Self-styled unhinged humour, do you also wear a wacky tie to work?
 


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