[Politics] Donald Trump 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
Not true. The espionage went from prosecuting people for spying to those who leaked classified information.

What is the Espionage Act?

What to know about the law that is used to prosecute spying and leaks of classified information

www.voanews.com

"The Espionage Act was enacted decades before the executive branch established the current system of classifying national security secrets in 1951. In modern times, the law is often used to prosecute the disclosure of classified documents, but it can also be used in the case of a disclosure of any national defense documents that could harm the United States."

Also

"
18 U.S.C. §§ 793, (d) makes it a crime to remove, copy or share national defense information, or to “willfully [retain]” national defense information and “[fail] to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it”—"

Saying you haven't found it yet as they are buried in 100 boxes is not willfully . After moving out no wonder so many are accused of having misplaced documents, its just the one who is being prosecuted.

This was 4 years ago, or getting on for it. Its amazing how all these crimes are being prosecuted in an election year, pure coincidence no doubt. In fact theres been one case to get it moved into the election run in which the supreme court booted, brought by prosecutor smith.

So if I took a load of documents from your house, some of which you claim are important to you, such as the deeds to your house, and if I claim that I can't give them back to you because I don't have them, can't remember taking them, and wouldn't even know where to look for them because if for sake of argument I did take them (but I didn't) they could be miss-placed after accidentally being buried in 100 boxes, you'd be OK with that?

The essence of Trump's bullshit is that he is claiming (or maybe it's just you) that he didn't take anything classified, because nothing classified has yet been found. But once a classified document has been found he is a guilty as if he had taken the deeds from your house. You are attempting to exonerate him from willfully (knowingly) taking classified material on the grounds that someone (Trump himself?) 'can't find' the documents? Wow.

I'll remember that going forward. It means I can steal anything, and as long as I can't remember whether I stole it, or where I put it, I can claim innocence. And what's more, anyone who disagrees is a persecutor.

Bodian · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
Saying you haven't found it yet as they are buried in 100 boxes is not willfully . After moving out no wonder so many are accused of having misplaced documents, its just the one who is being prosecuted.

He didn't say that though did he. He moved the boxes to ensure that they wouldn't be searched. They were not 'misplaced', and he doesn't appear to be arguing that they were. His argument is that he had 'declassified' them (despite there being no evidence of this happening).

You can't make up a defence that even Trump hasn't come up with.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jan 30, 2024

Curious Orange said:
Mr Trump has said a lot about those documents over the years; that he didn't have them; that he did have them but they were his; that he'd declassified the classified ones; that he'd given them all back; and that the FBI had planted them.

On this occasion, the normally scrupulously fair and logical dingo seems to have had some sort of cognitive malfunction.

I wonder if he can be repaired?

Curious Orange · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
This was 4 years ago, or getting on for it. Its amazing how all these crimes are being prosecuted in an election year, pure coincidence no doubt. In fact theres been one case to get it moved into the election run in which the supreme court booted, brought by prosecutor smith.

27 July 2023 was in a Presidential election year?

My apologies, the above is the date of the superseding indictment, the original one was handed up on 8 June 2023.

chickens · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
So if I took a load of documents from your house, some of which you claim are important to you, such as the deeds to your house, and if I claim that I can't give them back to you because I don't have them, can't remember taking them, and wouldn't even know where to look for them because if for sake of argument I did take them (but I didn't) they could be miss-placed after accidentally being buried in 100 boxes, you'd be OK with that?

The essence of Trump's bullshit is that he is claiming (or maybe it's just you) that he didn't take anything classified, because nothing classified has yet been found. But once a classified document has been found he is a guilty as if he had taken the deeds from your house. You are attempting to exonerate him from willfully (knowingly) taking classified material on the grounds that someone (Trump himself?) 'can't find' the documents? Wow.

I'll remember that going forward. It means I can steal anything, and as long as I can't remember whether I stole it, or where I put it, I can claim innocence. And what's more, anyone who disagrees is a persecutor.

It’s depressing, frankly. The Dingo I can see genuinely believes, but @lasvegan is either just trolling, or performing the most incredible cognitive gymnastics to skip over the glaring logical inconsistencies involved.

Zeberdi · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
Not true. The espionage went from prosecuting people for spying to those who leaked classified information.

That’s not true - NATIONAL DEFENCE information under the Espionage Act does not need to be classified or leaked nor even proven there was an intention to leak as I explained above ( with links to back that up) - it only needs to relate to National Security info not being properly handled and wilfully held onto when officials request it back. Setting aside Trump’s personal papers, the records of the Presidency belong in the National Archives not in a gold plated bathroom in a golf resort…. It is a matter of fact whether Trump is guilty and will be established in Court one way or another. I posted links to cases in my post above where numerous people have been convicted for non-spy and removal of non-classified NDI from secure State control/protection.

As for Trump arguing he ’declassified’ anything is laughable - that’s not how it works - an ex President can’t ‘think‘ something into a declassification, it needs to go through a procedure with officials.

Crawley Dingo said:
This was 4 years ago, or getting on for it. It’s amazing how all these crimes are being prosecuted in an election year, pure coincidence no doubt. In fact theres been one case to get it moved into the election run in which the supreme court booted, brought by prosecutor smith.

It takes years of pre- trial discovery and investigation before cases come to trial. The FBI opened this investigation in 2022. Your paranoid conspiracy theories hold no weight in this case I am afraid - if you think Trump is suddenly being charged out of the blue in election year, you clearly have no idea how slowly the DoJ works or how long investigations take.

The Stormy Daniels case was a 5 year investigation and the investigations against Trump for January 6 began on December 19 2022 when the House select committee publicly voted to recommend that the DOJ bring criminal charges against Trump. The New York Attorney General Letitia James began investigating the Trump organisation for the current fraud case in early 2019, with public litigation beginning in August 2020 to support her subpoenas in the inquiry.

None of these charges have anything to do with Trump subsequently announcing he was running again. Other than of course, Trump thinking if he ran again it would give him an opportunity to discredit prosecutors for the many indictments against him by claiming the charges are a political witch-hunt or even better, maybe hoping to give himself a pardon if he became elected.

MAGA has fallen for it, the GOP are exploiting it.

Crawley Dingo · Jan 30, 2024

Zeberdi said:
That’s not true - NATIONAL DEFENCE information under the Espionage Act does not need to be classified or leaked nor even proven there was an intention to leak as I explained above ( with links to back that up) - it only needs to relate to National Security info not being properly handled and wilfully held onto when officials request it back. Setting aside Trump’s personal papers, the records of the Presidency belong in the National Archives not in a gold plated bathroom in a golf resort…. It is a matter of fact whether Trump is guilty and will be established in Court one way or another. I posted links to cases in my post above where numerous people have been convicted for non-spy and removal of non-classified NDI from secure State control/protection.

As for Trump arguing he ’declassified’ anything is laughable - that’s not how it works - an ex President can’t ‘think‘ something into a declassification, it needs to go through a procedure with officials.

It takes years of pre- trial discovery and investigation before cases come to trial. The FBI opened this investigation in 2022. Your paranoid conspiracy theories hold no weight in this case I am afraid - if you think Trump is suddenly being charged out of the blue in election year, you clearly have no idea how slowly the DoJ works or how long investigations take.

The Stormy Daniels case was a 5 year investigation and the investigations against Trump for January 6 began on December 19 2022 when the House select committee publicly voted to recommend that the DOJ bring criminal charges against Trump. The New York Attorney General Letitia James began investigating the Trump organisation for the current fraud case in early 2019, with public litigation beginning in August 2020 to support her subpoenas in the inquiry.

None of these charges have anything to do with Trump subsequently announcing he was running again. Other than of course, Trump thinking if he ran again it would give him an opportunity to discredit prosecutors for the many indictments against him by claiming the charges are a political witch-hunt or even better, maybe hoping to give himself a pardon if he became elected.

MAGA has fallen for it, the GOP are exploiting it.

"and wilfully held onto" yes we've done this bit.

And yes they are all co-ordinated and pre planned, not out of the Blue to come to trial this year. Could all be academic after the supreme court judgement, they'll look to see how many of the prosecutors are Republican

. Also Fani the Geogia DA is under investigation for corruption and collusion with the White House.

After Assange revealed the Primary was rigged against Bernie Sanders and the Muller Enquiry was rigged why are you so gullible to swallow everything orchestrated by the top of the DNC?

PILTDOWN MAN · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
"and wilfully held onto" yes we've done this bit.

And yes they are all co-ordinated and pre planned, not out of the Blue to come to trial this year. Could all be academic after the supreme court judgement, they'll look to see how many of the prosecutors are Republican . Also Fani the Geogia DA is under investigation for corruption and collusion with the White House.

After Assange revealed the Primary was rigged against Bernie Sanders and the Muller Enquiry was rigged why are you so gullible to swallow everything orchestrated by the top of the DNC?

Why are so gullible, period? As they say over there.

beorhthelm · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
So if I took a load of documents from your house, some of which you claim are important to you, such as the deeds to your house, and if I claim that I can't give them back to you because I don't have them, can't remember taking them, and wouldn't even know where to look for them because if for sake of argument I did take them (but I didn't) they could be miss-placed after accidentally being buried in 100 boxes, you'd be OK with that?

The essence of Trump's bullshit is that he is claiming (or maybe it's just you) that he didn't take anything classified, because nothing classified has yet been found. But once a classified document has been found he is a guilty as if he had taken the deeds from your house. You are attempting to exonerate him from willfully (knowingly) taking classified material on the grounds that someone (Trump himself?) 'can't find' the documents? Wow.

I'll remember that going forward. It means I can steal anything, and as long as I can't remember whether I stole it, or where I put it, I can claim innocence. And what's more, anyone who disagrees is a persecutor.

classifed documents have been found though. as i understand it, after denial then amnesia before documents were found, he resorted to i'm special so the law doesn't apply. then made a claim he declassified them, which is beyond his power. that's his defense, "as President I can do what I like". in the coming court cases this will test the foundation of the Presidency and constitution.

more worryingly, they also found several dozen empty folders with classified marking.

Seagull58 · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
The Crawly drongo is doing a bad job of defending Trump. However, there is something compelling about @lasvegan's (presumed) narrative that when you wash off the greasepaint, there is very little of substance between Biden and the orange bungle****. If you can tolerate some buffoonery, some lies, some hubris, and just focus on your income, then why not vote Trump?

I am not saying I accept the argument (and I am probably someone who can tolerate a loss of excitement and a lack of a big fat erection of Making Britain Great - other nations are available - so I'm not in need of a jingo hit) but the distance between sleepy Joe and the bungle**** may not be so extreme as we on the UK left may feel. I mean, I feel it, but I dislike all carpetbaggers, liars, bullies and molesters. But if the pound in your pocket is your bottom line (other currencies are available) you may be able to vote for whatever Twat is promising the marginally better deal for you and your interests without holding your nose.

I loathe Trump far more than I worry about sleepy Joe, but who am I to insist that my values are better than those of, for example, a redneck?

The difference between Trump and Biden is night and day. Economic performance, healthcare, foreign policy, support for the constitution, women's rights, security of State secrets etc. etc. etc. Even wrt security of the border where Trump has instructed his cult followers to tank the congressional deal.

Zeberdi · Jan 30, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
After Assange revealed the Primary was rigged against Bernie Sanders and the Muller Enquiry was rigged why are you so gullible to swallow everything orchestrated by the top of the DNC?

I haven’t swallowed anything other than how Trump has presented himself - on the contrary, my first post on this thread was to question Trump’s suitability for President. This has nothing to do with the DNC but based on his actual track record in the Whitehouse - In one term (which was all the electorate could cope with!) he demonstrated ‘needy’, high risk, relationships with dictators, a belligerent attitude towards allies and a personality characterised by narcissistic behaviour and an egocentric disregard for law enforcement agencies, the security agencies and DoJ. Foreign leaders found him difficult and expressed an unwillingness to engage with him - he insulted 3 Star Generals, sacked 3 Chief of Staffs within the first 24 months of his administration and his relationships with WH staffers was toxic. His personal life laid him open to blackmail and foreign influence in American politics and he was a subject for mockery on the world stage - do you really want this man for President again?

As for his criminal court cases, they have all gone forward having been voted for indictments before Grand Juries - you can’t possibly think Grand Juries are made up of the top leaders of the Democrat Party

Tracking the Trump criminal cases: Latest on legal charges and key players

A definitive guide to the key players and legal risks in the four criminal probes of the former president.

www.politico.com

peterward · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Yes. I suppose I was trying to express how it is possible that ostensibly sensible people in the US can vote for Trump.

The MAGA cult is indeed crazed, but I wasn't thinking about them. We have crazed loons who support our two main parties (albeit whereas the crazed tory loons would back a pig in a blue rosette, the labour loons seem more interested in going on protest marches, opposing their own party and enacting "no compromise with the electorate" initiatives). I was thinking more about tens of millions of 'silent majority' Americans who just shrug their shoulders at Trump's antics and vote for him without liking him. Much the same way a lot of people (perhaps the majority) decide how to vote in the UK.

I think we need to disentangle gun totin' MAGA loons from rank and file American voters. In much the same way we need to disentangle 'anti-woke coalition' tory gammon from rank and file members of the public who generally favour conservatism. 'We' (of the self-styled centre left) will never win the hearts and minds of the persuadable by tarring the persuadable with the same brush as we tar the lunatics.

And I say that as someone with a long history of badmouthing conservatives. Am I still on a learning curve? It would be pleasing if so

As for the 'there all the same' contingent, I feel this is often a mantra invoked by right wing lunatics when they have lost an argument, rather than an expression of middle ground apathy. This is also probably the reason why we are hearing the mantra so often these last few years.

Brilliant artcile in the Guardian that helps to understand who the hell are these cult lunatics who support him.

#TeamIntrinsic

To beat Trump, we need to know why Americans keep voting for him. Psychologists may have the answer | George Monbiot

US culture is an incubator of ‘extrinsic values’. Nobody embodies them like the Republican front runner, writes Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

Seagull58 · Jan 30, 2024

Zeberdi said:
I haven’t swallowed anything other than how Trump has presented himself - on the contrary, my first post on this thread was to question Trump’s suitability for President. This has nothing to do with the DNC but based on his actual track record in the Whitehouse - In one term (which was all the electorate could cope with!) he demonstrated ‘needy’, high risk, relationships with dictators, a belligerent attitude towards allies and a personality characterised by narcissistic behaviour and an egocentric disregard for law enforcement agencies, the security agencies and DoJ. Foreign leaders found him difficult and expressed an unwillingness to engage with him - he insulted 3 Star Generals, sacked 3 Chief of Staffs within the first 24 months of his administration and his relationships with WH staffers was toxic. His personal life laid him open to blackmail and foreign influence in American politics and he was a subject for mockery on the world stage - do you really want this man for President again?

As for his criminal court cases, they have all gone forward having been voted for indictments before Grand Juries - you can’t possibly think Grand Juries are made up of the top leaders of the Democrat Party

Tracking the Trump criminal cases: Latest on legal charges and key players

A definitive guide to the key players and legal risks in the four criminal probes of the former president.

www.politico.com

You should have stopped at "you can't possibly think".

Zeus · Jan 30, 2024

There meltdown on here when Trump wins is going to be hilarious.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jan 30, 2024

Zeberdi said:
I haven’t swallowed anything other than how Trump has presented himself - on the contrary, my first post on this thread was to question Trump’s suitability for President. This has nothing to do with the DNC but based on his actual track record in the Whitehouse - In one term (which was all the electorate could cope with!) he demonstrated ‘needy’, high risk, relationships with dictators, a belligerent attitude towards allies and a personality characterised by narcissistic behaviour and an egocentric disregard for law enforcement agencies, the security agencies and DoJ. Foreign leaders found him difficult and expressed an unwillingness to engage with him - he insulted 3 Star Generals, sacked 3 Chief of Staffs within the first 24 months of his administration and his relationships with WH staffers was toxic. His personal life laid him open to blackmail and foreign influence in American politics and he was a subject for mockery on the world stage - do you really want this man for President again?

As for his criminal court cases, they have all gone forward having been voted for indictments before Grand Juries - you can’t possibly think Grand Juries are made up of the top leaders of the Democrat Party

Tracking the Trump criminal cases: Latest on legal charges and key players

A definitive guide to the key players and legal risks in the four criminal probes of the former president.

www.politico.com

It is perfectly legitimate to state that 'on balance, I feel more comfortable with Trump than with Biden'.

The trouble starts when one tried to justify this. I think one would have to argue that despite all the damage Trump did to the US reputation, and to individuals with whom he came into contact, his overall influence on the wealth and freedom of a sufficient number of Americans means he was a good president.

And this has to be balanced by an argument that despite Biden also presiding over an economy that had an overall positive influence on the wealth and freedom of a sufficient number of Americans, and despite Biden not embarrassing America on the world stage, or causing harm and distress to as many people with whom he has come into direct contact as Trump did, Biden is a greater risk to the future of America. For some reason.

I find it difficult to even voice this narrative, let alone defend it.

However, the constant gaslighting and whataboutery and downright Old Bollocks that @Crawley Dingo is offering us by way of a case for Trump is embarrassing, and little more than trolling. I don't have him on ignore because I'm quite enjoying watching his 'narrative' being defenestrated by a number of remarkably patient and tolerant people on here. I salute your indefatigability.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jan 30, 2024

Zeus said:
There meltdown on here when Trump wins is going to be hilarious.

I expect he will win. Frankly, as always, the electorate gets the leaders it deserves. No meltdown from me. Just a bit of tutting.

Stato · Jan 30, 2024

Seagull58 said:
The difference between Trump and Biden is night and day. Economic performance, healthcare, foreign policy, support for the constitution, women's rights, security of State secrets etc. etc. etc. Even wrt security of the border where Trump has instructed his cult followers to tank the congressional deal.

The main difference is that one, at the end of his second term, will leave office and that the other has shown that he will do everything he can not to. Let's be blunt, the motivation for Trump's run for the presidency is to keep himself out of jail. If the Democrats were really as powerful and Machiavellian as some would have you believe, they would have offered to sort all his legal problems in return for him pulling out. They haven't because they don't actually have this power and actually believe in the rule of law.

If he wins, then this just delays his legal troubles and he will be at risk again after his term and will not care what he has to break to protect himself. Most people who vote are not actually very interested in politics and you could forgive them for not being aware enough to be scared of this eventuality, but the last election proved the doomsayers correct, whatever the law says, Trump will not go willingly or easily. For people who do follow and understand politics and democratic safeguards, it's unbelievable that a Democracy can be so politically divided that someone who has done what he has done is allowed anywhere near the nomination, let alone be ahead in the polls.

Sid and the Sharknados · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
However, the constant gaslighting and whataboutery and downright Old Bollocks that @Crawley Dingo is offering us by way of a case for Trump is embarrassing, and little more than trolling. I don't have him on ignore because I'm quite enjoying watching his 'narrative' being defenestrated by a number of remarkably patient and tolerant people on here. I salute your indefatigability.

This is one of the most consistently entertaining threads I've seen on NSC.
While also being one of those I'm least interested in engaging with (at least, in any constructive manner).

Zeberdi · Jan 30, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
It is perfectly legitimate to state that 'on balance, I feel more comfortable with Trump than with Biden'.
…. I salute your indefatigability.

And I salute your efforts at balance H. I agree too, there are strong arguments against Biden but he is the only alternative.

Tbh - I can’t even get as far as policy differences- the differences between Trump and Biden in terms of character and statesmanship is like crossing the rubicon for me. His whole raison d’etre for running is very likely to keep himself from being convicted - it is outrageous that he is using the goodwill of his political base’s campaign donations to pay for him to try and do that.

Having said that, there are issues such as women’s rights, inclusivity and healthcare that if I were in the States, would be a very good reason for choosing Democrat. The economy has taken a hit as inflation soared around the world post covid, oil prices soaring as a result of the war in Ukraine (and now the ME). It is difficult to untangle what might or might not have happened if Trump had got a second term in 2020 but I doubt he would have stopped Putin or Netanyahu since he enabled them both in many ways.

Kuipers Supporters Club · Jan 30, 2024

Seagull58 said:
The difference between Trump and Biden is night and day. Economic performance, healthcare, foreign policy, support for the constitution, women's rights, security of State secrets etc. etc. etc. Even wrt security of the border where Trump has instructed his cult followers to tank the congressional deal.

Foreign policy?

Biden has been an absolute shower of shite.

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[Politics] Donald Trump 2024

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