[Football] Iran v Portugal

[Nixonator]

Yes we've had a few of those. But those are all poor on-field decisions that VAR hasn't put right. VAR hasn't caused the problem.

I disagree, the random luck on decisions is how it's always been at world cups. You have a huge mix of countries, who each have different experiences with how decisions are made back home, all thrown together with refs who aren't used to seeing those players with their unique brand of play acting or rugby.

We've got referees making some poor decisions, and they need to be better trained.

If referees were better trained, we wouldn't need VAR to begin with.

We seem to be going round in circles.

Also, I would rather have the random luck decisions (though it has never seemed very random in England's case) without the circus act of VAR. Staring at a referee for 2 mins while he puts his finger on his ear, as he is swamped by players drawing squares with their hands, then watching him trot over to a TV screen where he spends another minute or so, trots back and STILL gets the decision wrong. It's not entertainment.

So much of football is not cut and dry, if VAR is to be pursued then the rules of the game need rewriting.

 

[Jim D]

If referees were better trained, we wouldn't need VAR to begin with.

We seem to be going round in circles.

Also, I would rather have the random luck decisions (though it has never seemed very random in England's case) without the circus act of VAR. Staring at a referee for 2 mins while he puts his finger on his ear, as he is swamped by players drawing squares with their hands, then watching him trot over to a TV screen where he spends another minute or so, trots back and STILL gets the decision wrong. It's not entertainment.

So much of football is not cut and dry, if VAR is to be pursued then the rules of the game need rewriting.

I can't agree with that. Spain's second goal yesterday would have been disallowed as the lino flagged for offside and no ref will overrule that. It was only VAR that showed it wasn't.

 

[Machiavelli]

Exactly. And yet that fairly innocuous incident with Ronaldo last night when he brushed past that player gets about a 2 minute review.

The number of pens we are getting is incredible as well. Most times they've been correct, but last nights for Iran was a real stinker. It feels like referees are under pressure to alter their original decision and give the pen - I think I've only seen ONE penalty overturned on review so far (when Neymar conned one against Costa Rica but then had it rightly taken away). Whenever a VAR calls for a penalty review though, it always seems to be given.

Another unwelcome aspect I wasn't expecting is that I thought VAR would lead to LESS playacting, but if this World Cup is anything to go by so far, there's even MORE playacting and exaggeration, as players seem to want to draw attention and make the absolute most of any slight touch. There's always been the usual suspects who try this shit on of course, but its reached truly pandemic proportions in this tournament.

As suspected, VAR has resolved some controversies, but has brought in a whole set of new ones we didn't have before.

I'm broadly in favour of more technology being used -- of which VAR is one form. This was tested by last night's game, but I still think it was the ref that got most things wrong: I doubt the Ronaldo incident was even a booking, let alone a sending off; his penalty decision was borderline and, for me, not enough for it to be overturned, as the rules required; and the Iran penalty was a nonsense.
You make a good case against VAR, but there is another scenario that could have happened with the Pique red card that wasn't given or reviewed: the ref could have refused to look at the incident again despite being encouraged to do so.
This might be another way of saying that there's always going to be a bedding-in process with introducing this technology, as it deals with far more contentious issues than, for instance, goalline technology (which I'm presuming you're not opposed to).

 

[Nixonator]

I can't agree with that. Spain's second goal yesterday would have been disallowed as the lino flagged for offside and no ref will overrule that. It was only VAR that showed it wasn't.

One correct overturn is cancelled out by the absurdity in the other match. VAR is supposed to bring about consistency, in reality it is compounding it.

In fact, without VAR in either game last night the group would have finished as it should have. With VAR Spain have topped the group undeservedly.

 

[Simster]

One correct overturn is cancelled out by the absurdity in the other match. VAR is supposed to bring about consistency, in reality it is compounding it.

In fact, without VAR in either game last night the group would have finished as it should have. With VAR Spain have topped the group undeservedly.

VAR *will* bring about consistency when it is used properly. Yesterday wasn't the fault of VAR, it was the fault of a simpering buffoon of a ref who, when invited to look at the screen, didn't conclude it wasn't a penalty. But refs will soon learn, much as goalkeepers learned how to play football with their feet after the back-pass rule was wisely introduced.

The stupidity here is that VAR has been introduced to major international tournaments about two years too early.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

If referees were better trained, we wouldn't need VAR to begin with.

We seem to be going round in circles.

Also, I would rather have the random luck decisions (though it has never seemed very random in England's case) without the circus act of VAR. Staring at a referee for 2 mins while he puts his finger on his ear, as he is swamped by players drawing squares with their hands, then watching him trot over to a TV screen where he spends another minute or so, trots back and STILL gets the decision wrong. It's not entertainment.

So much of football is not cut and dry, if VAR is to be pursued then the rules of the game need rewriting.

Can't rewrite something that doesn't exist, laws dear poster laws

 

[Icy Gull]

Have we got VAR to look forward to in the Premier League next season?

 

[Triggaaar]

The ref was clueless, but I think it stems from the guys looking at the decisions from elsewhere. They are only meant to say when there's a clear and obvious error. If they do communicate, it puts the ref under pressure to change his mind.

Yes I agree, and refs will learn from that. They need to learn that sometimes the VAR boys will get it wrong, and they can stick with their decision if they want. Yesterday's decision was a joke.

Last night was the first time I can remember that after checking, the ref didn't award what had potentially be missed (a red card offence).

I think that was a good decision. I don't blame them for looking at it again, Ronaldo did deliberately hit someone off the ball, but it shouldn't have been a red. Ref did a good job. Although he might have got it wrong if it wasn't Ronaldo.

I don't think any of the three VAR incidents last night were clear and obvious errors.

Spain's goal was not offside. It wasn't a bad mistake by the linesman (ie, it was very close real time), but it was clear enough from the replay that it wasn't offside. VAR used correctly.

 

[Triggaaar]

If referees were better trained, we wouldn't need VAR to begin with.

That's simply not true, because no referee will ever be able to see everything at once, and not miss things.

Have we got VAR to look forward to in the Premier League next season?

No.

 

[Easy 10]

I'm broadly in favour of more technology being used -- of which VAR is one form. This was tested by last night's game, but I still think it was the ref that got most things wrong: I doubt the Ronaldo incident was even a booking, let alone a sending off; his penalty decision was borderline and, for me, not enough for it to be overturned, as the rules required; and the Iran penalty was a nonsense.
You make a good case against VAR, but there is another scenario that could have happened with the Pique red card that wasn't given or reviewed: the ref could have refused to look at the incident again despite being encouraged to do so.
This might be another way of saying that there's always going to be a bedding-in process with introducing this technology, as it deals with far more contentious issues than, for instance, goalline technology (which I'm presuming you're not opposed to).

I've no problem at all with goal-line technology. It works perfectly.

Last night, the ref made some duff calls, but although it is ultimately the refs decision, the VAR must take a share of the blame as well. The VAR is only supposed to contact the ref for a review when, in his opinion, he has made a clear and obvious error. The Ronaldo pen was a "maybe" (so not clear and obvious), the Ronaldo foul was a "hmmm" (so not clear and obvious), and the Iran pen was a million miles away from being a handball. So in those 3 instances, VAR should not have even got involved. Its NOT suposed to be there to assist with marginal fouls.

The trouble is, quite predictably, one mans "clear and obvious error" is another mans "not a clear and obvious error", and we get all the shades of grey inbetween. On the whole, its worked better in this World Cup than I thought it would, and has corrected some important incidents. But last night was a prime example of how VAR is NOT supposed to be used. Hopefully, FIFA will have the refs and the VARs go through that game and iron out the creases.

But its already materially altered the course of the tournament now. Which ain't great.

I fear for someone in the knockouts. There's going to be a clanger and someone will be on the plane home as a result. Its usually us.

 

[seagulls4ever]

I think that was a good decision. I don't blame them for looking at it again, Ronaldo did deliberately hit someone off the ball, but it shouldn't have been a red. Ref did a good job. Although he might have got it wrong if it wasn't Ronaldo.

It was the correct decision, but I don't think the ref made a potentially clear and obvious error by not awarding a red, so IMO they shouldn't have stopped play. The ref shouldn't get involved unless there's a clear and obvious error. I don't think many people really think it was a red unless they just don't like Ronaldo and think he deserves it!

Spain's goal was not offside. It wasn't a bad mistake by the linesman (ie, it was very close real time), but it was clear enough from the replay that it wasn't offside. VAR used correctly.

I should have been more specific, I was only talking about the Iran vs Portugal match. In the other match, I think Pique should have received a red. Offside was a good call.

 

[seagulls4ever]

VAR *will* bring about consistency when it is used properly. Yesterday wasn't the fault of VAR, it was the fault of a simpering buffoon of a ref who, when invited to look at the screen, didn't conclude it wasn't a penalty. But refs will soon learn, much as goalkeepers learned how to play football with their feet after the back-pass rule was wisely introduced.

The stupidity here is that VAR has been introduced to major international tournaments about two years too early.

Surely it's the fault of the VAR officials for initiating the review in the first place? Therefore, it was the fault of VAR. It was VAR being used incorrectly. Nothing clear and obvious about the pen so the ref review should have never been initiated.

 

[Triggaaar]

It was the correct decision, but I don't think the ref made a potentially clear and obvious error by not awarding a red, so IMO they shouldn't have stopped play.

Agreed. I suppose it's fair to say the ref didn't see the incident in the first place, as he'd have given a yellow if he had, and the VAR bods were simply saying 'you missed this ref, have a look'. But yeah, I agree they shouldn't have bothered.

And maybe because they're only supposed to be called upon if it was a clear penalty/goal/red card error, the refs may automatically assume they need to chance their decision when called upon - they need to get used to the fact that the VAR refs aren't getting it all right yet.

The ref shouldn't get involved unless there's a clear and obvious error. I don't think many people really think it was a red unless they just don't like Ronaldo and think he deserves it!

I don't like him on the pitch, he cheated to get Rooney sent off. But I don't think it was a red. Although it was worse than what Beckham got sent off for.

 

[Machiavelli]

I've no problem at all with goal-line technology. It works perfectly.

Last night, the ref made some duff calls, but although it is ultimately the refs decision, the VAR must take a share of the blame as well. The VAR is only supposed to contact the ref for a review when, in his opinion, he has made a clear and obvious error. The Ronaldo pen was a "maybe" (so not clear and obvious), the Ronaldo foul was a "hmmm" (so not clear and obvious), and the Iran pen was a million miles away from being a handball. So in those 3 instances, VAR should not have even got involved. Its NOT suposed to be there to assist with marginal fouls.

The trouble is, quite predictably, one mans "clear and obvious error" is another mans "not a clear and obvious error", and we get all the shades of grey inbetween. On the whole, its worked better in this World Cup than I thought it would, and has corrected some important incidents. But last night was a prime example of how VAR is NOT supposed to be used. Hopefully, FIFA will have the refs and the VARs go through that game and iron out the creases.

But its already materially altered the course of the tournament now. Which ain't great.

I fear for someone in the knockouts. There's going to be a clanger and someone will be on the plane home as a result. Its usually us.

Where I differ from you is from the last two lines. What you say is likely to occur but equally, and I'd argue that it's even more the case, the course of the tournament could be -- and has been, on multiple occasions -- altered without the use of VAR.
VAR will not achieve perfection. It's real test is whether it achieves improvement. I think there are tentative signs that it is doing so (you seem to at least nudge towards this position in your response to me) but, because it's dealing with contentious (rather than cast-iron, as with goalline technology) issues, there's always going to be some controversy, and a trial-and-error aspect to its implementation.

 

[Gwylan]

I don't like him on the pitch, he cheated to get Rooney sent off. But I don't think it was a red. Although it was worse than what Beckham got sent off for.

Your memory's letting you down there - it was Carvalho, not Ronaldo, who went down from the Rooney challenge. I thought the red was fair enough actually. But I do agree that Ronaldo generally acts like a tosser on the pitch

 

[Triggaaar]

Your memory's letting you down there - it was Carvalho, not Ronaldo, who went down from the Rooney challenge. I thought the red was fair enough actually.

Oh I seem to remember Ronaldo winking to the bench or something.

Just watched it again. Pundits weren't sure if it was for stamping on Carvalho, or the gentle push on Ronaldo.

 

[Wardy's twin]

VAR *will* bring about consistency when it is used properly. Yesterday wasn't the fault of VAR, it was the fault of a simpering buffoon of a ref who, when invited to look at the screen, didn't conclude it wasn't a penalty. But refs will soon learn, much as goalkeepers learned how to play football with their feet after the back-pass rule was wisely introduced.

The stupidity here is that VAR has been introduced to major international tournaments about two years too early.

agree VAR will only make a good ref (i.e. one who knows what is right and wrong) better by helping with marginal decisions it wont make a bad ref a good one.

 

[Simster]

Surely it's the fault of the VAR officials for initiating the review in the first place? Therefore, it was the fault of VAR. It was VAR being used incorrectly. Nothing clear and obvious about the pen so the ref review should have never been initiated.

Had I been in the VAR studio I wouldn't have bothered speaking to the ref either. But the fact is, somebody decided to do so, inviting the ref to take a look. Ultimately it was the ref who made this crap decision, not VAR. He was just weak, crumpling in the face of indecision. And you just knew he'd be like that as he lost control of the game as he started dishing out cards and acting like a banshee. Basically, he was shit ref, which is why Egypt had complained about him in the past. He won't ref at this level again.

 

[Easy 10]

Had I been in the VAR studio I wouldn't have bothered speaking to the ref either. But the fact is, somebody decided to do so, inviting the ref to take a look. Ultimately it was the ref who made this crap decision, not VAR. He was just weak, crumpling in the face of indecision. And you just knew he'd be like that as he lost control of the game as he started dishing out cards and acting like a banshee. Basically, he was shit ref, which is why Egypt had complained about him in the past. He won't ref at this level again.

Do you not lay some of the blame at the antics of the players ? Almost to a man they were determined to cheat and fake their way around the pitch with varying degrees of snidery. With the ref having a hugely flaky VAR in his earhole as well, I had to have some sympathy with him, it was a pig of a game to referee. It doesn't justify the worst decision of the lot with that pen at the end, and you're right, he probably won't see the last 16. But by christ I don't envy them, trying to run the rule over the fakers and shysters who have festooned this group stage with their screaming histrionics.

 

[Perry Milkins]

Do you not lay some of the blame at the antics of the players ? Almost to a man they were determined to cheat and fake their way around the pitch with varying degrees of snidery. With the ref having a hugely flaky VAR in his earhole as well, I had to have some sympathy with him, it was a pig of a game to referee. It doesn't justify the worst decision of the lot with that pen at the end, and you're right, he probably won't see the last 16. But by christ I don't envy them, trying to run the rule over the fakers and shysters who have festooned this group stage with their screaming histrionics.

What a great name for a Punk Band.