[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

Then I think you and Watford Zero are close to agreement.

apparently not, as he seems to hold the view that the Joint Report is the agreement for the future, without condition or change. even though it explicitly says it isn't.

 

[WATFORD zero]

apparently not, as he seems to hold the view that the Joint Report is the agreement for the future, without condition or change. even though it explicitly says it isn't.

The phrase you like to quote "This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations"

The difference is quite simple. I believe they may make minor amendments to the agreement in phase 2. You believe they will reverse two of the main aspects of the report during phase 2, namely border control and legislative compliance with the single market.

Time will tell.

 

[nicko31]

A bit like TM is now trying to get the EU to agree to us negotiating other trade deals whilst staying in the Single Market for further 2 years after we have left. I would think this perfectly defines "This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations".

Us saying 'We are now going to set up a hard border and introduce Immigration Controls between NI and Britain (or Ireland / NI)" so that we can maintain someone on NSC's red lines probably doesn't. IMHO

Apparently the border issue will all be solved with technology solutions. Advanced hormone beef and chlorinated chicken scanning equipment are going through Home Office Approval as we speak

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Ludicrous. Anyone who suggests that there is no difference between (a) ignoring the 23 June referendum result and (b) hoping that there will be another democratic event that leads to it being overturned is either totally devious or barely sentient.

Yes, you want to ignore/reverse the referendum result before it can be enacted because you didn't like the outcome, you also clearly want to ignore another 'democratic event', the General Election where over 80% voted for parties commited to delivering Brexit. Third time lucky? I take it this hoped for 'democractic event' will have to be a referendum because parties standing on a Remain ticket get nowhere ... Lincoln Imp suddenly a fan of Referendum?!.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Do you really believe this "nothing has been agreed till everything has been agreed" shit ? It is about as meaningful as a Red, White and Blue Brexit. It's just another soundbite put out for idiots. Your precious red lines didn't even last through the first phase of negotiations.

Do you really believe that the statement of the Friday before last when we gave away border control and parliamentary sovereignty was just some sort of 'sham' to be ignored when we feel like it. We were just saying what was needed to get us to phase 2, with no commitment or comeback ?

I really am totally stunned that you (and others) could think that all the brinkmanship, negotiations, phone calls through the night and panicked statements of 2 weeks ago were pointless and the whole of phase 1 stage of the negotiations, that had to be completed before we went onto phase 2, then had no further impact and could all be reversed in phase 2. Even David Davis has since admitted that he's been put right on that.

The truth is the EU have been playing us since the day after the vote, we have followed their plan to the letter, and you are grasping at straws.

And before you accuse me of being some Jeremy Corbyn supporter, I've never voted for him. I don't even blame TM for where we are. She (or whoever stepped up) was f***ed the moment they stepped up after the vote, but naked ambition is a strange thing. Why do you think she is till leader when she has such ridiculously low ratings ? The Tories aren't known for loyalty under pressure, however it's because no right minded politician who believes they have any kind of future is going to take on this cluster****.

She had no choice other than to do what she was told by the 52%. And at each stage, she has done exactly what you have asked her to do.

*sigh* Once again we had a common travel area with the Republic before the EU so what border controls are we 'giving up'? I don't think phase one was pointess just that the outcome is not as you describe it (more fudge than certainty in many areas).

Lots of opinion and hyperbole but not truth.

How can she have done exactly what we (Brexiteers) have asked her to when you are claiming she has already caved in on Red lines?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It wouldn't be continually ignored. It would be reversing a process that is going very badly wrong after an advisory referendum. Once.

Someone who wanted to leave the EU would have only one realistic democratic choice - UKIP. That person along with over 4 million others cast their vote at parliamentary elections and get just 1 MP, the same person votes in a European election and UKIP actually win getting the most MEP's, same person then gets a vote in a referendum that the Government promise to enact and finds 17.4 million agree with him/her. If the result isn't delivered I think it understandable they might get a tad annoyed and think democracy isn't working for them.

 

[WATFORD zero]

How can she have done exactly what we (Brexiteers) have asked her to when you are claiming she has already caved in on Red lines?

I don't remember there being any Red Lines on the Brexit vote. Unless my memory has gone completely the vote was 'Leave the EU' and that's exactly what she's doing

Red lines are things various Brexiteers have invented since the vote.

You know the sort of thing, Immigration control, Parliamentary Sovereignty

 

[ManOfSussex]

I don't remember there being any Red Lines on the Brexit vote. Unless my memory has gone completely the vote was 'Leave the EU' and that's exactly what she's doing

Red lines are things various Brexiteers have invented since the vote.

I don't remember any red lines 18 months ago either. I can clearly remember that red bus though.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I don't remember there being any Red Lines on the Brexit vote. Unless my memory has gone completely the vote was 'Leave the EU' and that's exactly what she's doing

Red lines are things various Brexiteers have invented since the vote.

No we just bothered to listen to what the PM said in speeches (and in the manifesto) setting out their position including red lines.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No we just bothered to listen to what the PM said in speeches (and in the manifesto) setting out their position including red lines.

Well I'm afraid that's twice you've been lied to and believed it then.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Yes, you want to ignore/reverse the referendum result before it can be enacted because you didn't like the outcome, you also clearly want to ignore another 'democratic event', the General Election where over 80% voted for parties commited to delivering Brexit. Third time lucky? I take it this hoped for 'democractic event' will have to be a referendum because parties standing on a Remain ticket get nowhere ... Lincoln Imp suddenly a fan of Referendum?!.

Sorry to try to repair your stuck record but, once again, I don't want to 'ignore' the referendum - I would simply like the public to be consulted again consultation when the effects of Brexit are more apparent. I can understand why you don't want this, and I also understand why you seek to misrepresent it and name-call anyone who disagrees with you.

In fact, there's nothing unique in the broad principle of re-consulting in this way. It could be argued that the 2017 election was a not dissimilar example. The Tories got elected in 2015 on the basis of a very long manifesto and very quickly, well before barely a single sentence of it could be enacted, the Prime Minister went back to the public because she was not happy with their collective decision.

Your "80 per cent" claim doesn't hold water. You may as well argue that, to take one example, virtually everyone is against capital punishment because virtually everyone voted for a party that is against it. As it happens, I would prefer a Brexitexit to involve a general election rather than just another referendum. Referendums on national issues tend to be crude, divisive and simplistic shouting matches.

For an election to have any effect on Brexit would of course require the Labour Party to continue its slow journey towards a shift of policy.

Frankly, I don't see it happening. Too many ducks would have to line up. Morgan Stanley has suggested that the likelihood of Brexit being stopped in around 10 per cent and perhaps that's about right.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Sorry to try to repair your stuck record but, once again, I don't want to 'ignore' the referendum - I would simply like the public to be consulted again consultation when the effects of Brexit are more apparent. I can understand why you don't want this, and I also understand why you seek to misrepresent it and name-call anyone who disagrees with you.

In fact, there's nothing unique in the broad principle of re-consulting in this way. It could be argued that the 2017 election was a not dissimilar example. The Tories got elected in 2015 on the basis of a very long manifesto and very quickly, well before barely a single sentence of it could be enacted, the Prime Minister went back to the public because she was not happy with their collective decision.

Your "80 per cent" claim doesn't hold water. You may as well argue that, to take one example, virtually everyone is against capital punishment because virtually everyone voted for a party that is against it. As it happens, I would prefer a Brexitexit to involve a general election rather than just another referendum. Referendums on national issues tend to be crude, divisive and simplistic shouting matches.

For an election to have any effect on Brexit would of course require the Labour Party to continue its slow journey towards a shift of policy.

Frankly, I don't see it happening. Too many ducks would have to line up. Morgan Stanley has suggested that the likelihood of Brexit being stopped in around 10 per cent and perhaps that's about right.

Putting the referendum mandate isn't good enough, GE mandate isn't good enough undemocratic nonsense to one side.

The effects will be more apparent at the next scheduled GE after we have left and the referendum and GE mandates have been honoured. I expect the Lib Dems will still be givng the voters a rejoin/second referendum option so you know where to cast your vote and if enough people agree you will get what you want. I would put their/your chances at around 0.001%. The following GE the effects will be even more apparent etc. Mind you by your own argument even if both main parties support rejoining some point in the future and get 80% of the vote it's still not a good enough reason.

 

[The Clamp]

Someone who wanted to leave the EU would have only one realistic democratic choice - UKIP. That person along with over 4 million others cast their vote at parliamentary elections and get just 1 MP, the same person votes in a European election and UKIP actually win getting the most MEP's, same person then gets a vote in a referendum that the Government promise to enact and finds 17.4 million agree with him/her. If the result isn't delivered I think it understandable they might get a tad annoyed and think democracy isn't working for them.

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

Behave. Jesus Christ Footie Genius has made it perfectly clear that he is the only true democrat - anyone who disagrees with him is a contemptible loon.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

A huge majority in parliament voted to give the people a referendum. A referendum the government promised to enact, 17.4 million won the day and parliament voted by a huge majority to trigger article 50. Then followed a general election where 80% voted for parties promising to enact Brexit I expect it to happen .... yes very, very, democratic. The outcomes of elections should be honoured or what's the point in holding them.

People trying to subvert or reverse it are contemptible undemocratic loons.

 

[nicko31]

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

Referendums tend diminish democracies rather than empower them. The Tories tried their best to destroy ours by pushing a hard Brexit without consulting anyone, they thought a 52/48 vote was some kind of blank cheque. Thankfully some smart people brought them into check. Experts that understand the rule of law, not an angry mob that know little outside of the Daily Mail

Meanwhile finally today 18 months on from the referendum cabinet are finally discussing our future trading relationship with the EU without any impact analysis of the different options. You couldn't make it up

 

[beorhthelm]

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

very EU of course you'd be quite happy to rerun the referendum on EU membership every few years?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So democracy just stops when you get the result you want. I see. Very democratic.

Priceless from a GRIZZLER
regards
DR

 

[pastafarian]

What is it about leaving the EU that you are most looking forward to?

I am mostly looking forward to European law no longer having precedence over laws passed in the UK Parliament and the end of power of the European Court of Justice in the UK thanks to the repeal of The 1972 European Communities Act. This will ensure more sovereign law making powers returning to Westminster from Brussels which given the europhiles new love of parliamentary democracy after years in the wilderness of not caring if its Brussels or Westminster is something we all can welcome.

When you voted Brexit did you want immigration control or parliamentary sovereignty?
.

Perhaps you can explain why it must be one or the other and cant be both

Do you really believe this "nothing has been agreed till everything has been agreed" shit ? It is about as meaningful as a Red, White and Blue Brexit. It's just another soundbite put out for idiots..

Its all very well saying this soundbite phrase is for idiots, but “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” is a EU core principle set out in their own Brexit negotiating guidelines.
Are you saying the EU and Europhiles are talking ballocks and are idiots?

 

[pastafarian]

Quite, I just mean so many of them bought into Farage's rhetoric of the Great Britain they've always wanted and the lies about money and keeping foreigners out. Instead they got conned. Well, they tried to con us all but 52% fell for it. But as you say, they just wanted out and by voting leave they handed over their rights and opportunities to actually have a say and change how the EU is run. Ironic really, by voting for "freedom" they ensured their own enslavement. Pity they tried to drag us down with them. At least most remain voters are intelligent enough to adapt and have most have the money to cushion us from the worst of it, it's the leave voters who are less educated and in lower paid jobs who will suffer the most.

And the Most Sanctimonious Post On The Brexit Thread Award goes to………