[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

The EU is not "them" as you put it. It is US. We are them.

You have to distinguish between the EU, that is the Commission - the Government, and Europe, which is a continent.

We are Europeans and part of Europe, we always will be.

"The EU" is the political structure, that is something quite different.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

you need to open your eyes and stop believing everything the politicians and rich elite tell you. Wake up and stop being a sheep!

you sound wet behind the ears son
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Leaving won't help make Poland more equal with us will it! We should stay and help bring up conditions in poorer countries and solve the problem, not just treat symptoms.

you mean giving them even more of our money
regards
DR

 

[dingodan]

Yes and we should stay and fight to change it and make it more democratic!

Why? Apart from the fact that it is stubborn as a mule, even a democratic EU would be a nightmare. The French will vote in the interests of France, the Italians in the interests of Italy, and so on. It would always be complete deadlock. That's why it will never work, and that's also why it isn't democratic and never can be.

Why don't we just, I don't know, have our own Government? Be friends and neighbours and trade and travel and talk and learn from one another. Why do we have to all join together into one massive superstate? What's the payoff? I see none. The nations of Europe seem to me to have far more acrimonious relationships with one another than they would otherwise have if they operated on the basis of mutual respect, dialogue, trade, but ultimately independence.

Collectivism is no good thing.

 

[dingodan]

Well it won't work with people with your attitude involved. I believe we can work together and achieve far far greater things than we can individually.

If there is something we can achieve together I am all for it! We agree that we all want to work together on it and then we do! great!

The problem is this group mentality, that you are in or you are out. If you are in, you must agree to everything, if you are out, we can't work together. That's not a good way of doing things. We should work together on all kinds of things, but on a voluntary basis. If for some reason something doesn't work for us (or for any other country) then we should be able and willing to say fair enough, and respect each other.

The argument that is made against this is that nations will decide to only want to do what is in their interests, as though somehow they should agree to do what is not in their interests "for the good of the group". But why should any of us want anyone to do anything they don't want to? That just leads to resentment and ill will.

There is no reason that we can't work together on those things that we all agree on, and there is no reason why any nation should be forced to do anything that they or their people don't want. That's the kind of mutually respectful relationship we should have. I think you could have everything you want in a system of independant nations working together voluntarily, without giving up their rights to make decisions for themselves, it's only the "central planners", the people who want power and think they can create a utopia, it's only they who "need" this superstate.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

A question for those people who would like to remain under the authority of the EU government, why are you so comfortable with us being governed by people we have never elected and cannot unelect, no matter who they are now or in the future or what they do now or in the future? Can you not at least see why others are uncomfortable with that?

Can you not at least see that being uncomfortable with that isn't actually hugely unreasonable?

Many reasonable people voted to leave and you may well be one of them.

The EU has an elected parliament and, because it covers a bigger area than a single country, its lines of accountability are inevitably longer. Like politicians the world over, the EU's often seem consumed with their own importance. It's not a breed I am naturally fond of.

However, I don't see the EU having a government that 'governs' us in the normal sense of that word.

Most governing is done at national level. As a nation we run most of our own affairs. A country that is free to declare war on another can hardly be said to be governed from another place.

Certainly, the EU organises common regulations and I know this upsets some people. It doesn't upset me because the realities of an interdependent world mean that we often have to follow rules set elsewhere. For example, if we sign up to a trade deal with the USA then we will have to acquiesce to animal welfare standards that we're not happy with. The EU regulations that most affect us tend to be about welfare and consumer protection. Some of them might be daft. Most of them aren't. I am happy to see my nation participating in this.

Inevitably there will always be some democratic deficit when nations come together. (The same could be said in Texas when the USA came together.) Personally though, the EU deficit worries me far less than the one created by Britain's crazy and coarse electoral system, a system that means that I, a supporter of a mainstream middle-of-the-road party for decades, have never seen my vote have any effect on anything.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Leaving won't help make Poland more equal with us will it! We should stay and help bring up conditions in poorer countries and solve the problem, not just treat symptoms.

The Poles will be coming here for cheap shopping soon

 

[dingodan]

Many reasonable people voted to leave and you may well be one of them.

The EU has an elected parliament and, because it covers a bigger area than a single country, its lines of accountability are inevitably longer. Like politicians the world over, the EU's often seem consumed with their own importance. It's not a breed I am naturally fond of.

However, I don't see the EU having a government that 'governs' us in the normal sense of that word.

Most governing is done at national level. As a nation we run most of our own affairs. A country that is free to declare war on another can hardly be said to be governed from another place.

Certainly, the EU organises common regulations and I know this upsets some people. It doesn't upset me because the realities of an interdependent world mean that we often have to follow rules set elsewhere. For example, if we sign up to a trade deal with the USA then we will have to acquiesce to animal welfare standards that we're not happy with. The EU regulations that most affect us tend to be about welfare and consumer protection. Some of them might be daft. Most of them aren't. I am happy to see my nation participating in this.

Inevitably there will always be some democratic deficit when nations come together. (The same could be said in Texas when the USA came together.) Personally though, the EU deficit worries me far less than the one created by Britain's crazy and coarse electoral system, a system that means that I, a supporter of a mainstream middle-of-the-road party for decades, have never seen my vote have any effect on anything.

The EU and the rules countries are made to follow are not to ensure Animal welfare standards are met, nor is it about peoples rights as is so often suggested. I care about righs (of people and animals) as much as the next person. We can always petition our government if we want those standards strengthened in our country.

But the massive point you are missing here is that most of what EU regulations are about have nothing to do with noble virtuous principles, and everything to do with protectionism, ideology and power.

Everything "good" the EU does, we can do (and every other nation can do) ourselves - if we percieve it to be in our interests and our peoples want or demand it. The whole reason we have gone down this path is because of those things which nations would not do voluntarily, and are not wanted by the peoples of particular nations, like favoring one industry in one nation over another industry in another nation, or instituting a collectivised identity. The whole reason for using a system of force is that it's the only way to get people to do what they don't want to do.

The EU has long been about arm twisting, political ideologies, power, money, the prestiege of those who run it and the trappings they benefit from. Today most of the good things they do is basically for PR so they can sell the rest that they do which isn't good.

This was all sold to us originally as an efficient way of formalizing standards, the EEC. & we bought it because, that doesn't sound bad, I know that what I buy in this or that country will be a safe product. Sounds good. But the rest, and all that has come since has been basically corrupt on the one hand and ideological on the other.

There is no point in being pro the EU because you don't like domestic politics, domestic politics is the one thing you can change. You and I have no idea who or what will rule the EU in 15 years time. If it's an EU-nationalistic, rights grabbing, ideologically (insert the politics which you hate here) government, there will be nothing you or I will be able to do about it. (If we are/were still in, of course)

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Our future PM was on good form today.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The EU and the rules countries are made to follow are not to ensure Animal welfare standards are met, nor is it about peoples rights as is so often suggested. I care about righs (of people and animals) as much as the next person. We can always petition our government if we want those standards strengthened in our country.

But the massive point you are missing here is that most of what EU regulations are about have nothing to do with noble virtuous principles, and everything to do with protectionism, ideology and power.

Everything "good" the EU does, we can do (and every other nation can do) ourselves - if we percieve it to be in our interests and our peoples want or demand it. The whole reason we have gone down this path is because of those things which nations would not do voluntarily, and are not wanted by the peoples of particular nations, like favoring one industry in one nation over another industry in another nation, or instituting a collectivised identity. The whole reason for using a system of force is that it's the only way to get people to do what they don't want to do.

The EU has long been about arm twisting, political ideologies, power, money, the prestiege of those who run it and the trappings they benefit from. Today most of the good things they do is basically for PR so they can sell the rest that they do which isn't good.

This was all sold to us originally as an efficient way of formalizing standards, the EEC. & we bought it because, that doesn't sound bad, I know that what I buy in this or that country will be a safe product. Sounds good. But the rest, and all that has come since has been basically corrupt on the one hand and ideological on the other.

There is no point in being pro the EU because you don't like domestic politics, domestic politics is the one thing you can change. You and I have no idea who or what will rule the EU in 15 years time. If it's an EU-nationalistic, rights grabbing, ideologically (insert the politics which you hate here) government, there will be nothing you or I will be able to do about it. (If we are/were still in, of course)

Thank you for your response. I would like to pay you the courtesy of a further reply but almost every line of your post suggests a loathing so visceral (example: everything that has ever come from the EU has been corrupt and ideological) that it would be a waste of both our times for me to do so.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Our future PM was on good form today.

Yeah, real good form. Really classy too.

[tweet]915295999140204544[/tweet]

 

[dingodan]

Thank you for your response. I would like to pay you the courtesy of a further reply but almost every line of your post suggests a loathing so visceral (example: everything that has ever come from the EU has been corrupt and ideological) that it would be a waste of both our times for me to do so.

I don't mean to sound so negative in my last post, but to be honest, it's just what has happened. If you weren't aware that the EU is rife with corruption (let me know when they have an audit or publish their expenses) then fair enough, but it's common knowledge. The people of Europe don't want a European identity to replace their own national identities. They want to know that the batteries they buy wont explode, that was the original idea which was sold to us, but it seems to me to have been something of a bait and switch.

If you see it another way, that there is something we can only achieve with this model, I'm open to hearing it.

I haven't really ever heard a coherent argument for what good the EU actually does which national governments can't do themselves if their people want it. If their people don't want it, why do it? Most of the argument seems to center around the idea that we should all be friends and work together, like I said in a previous post, I agree wholeheartedly with that. Why can't we do that voluntarily while maintaining our independance (I mean that for all nations not just ours)?

The great thing is that we can achieve all that we want to, without anyone having to give up any autonomy or right of self determination.

Feel free to correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yeah, real good form. Really classy too.

[tweet]915295999140204544[/tweet]

Could be worse ..

For the many not the few to 'For the Gentiles, not the Jews'?

.. at least a BBC journalist didn't need protection at the Tory conference.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Could be worse ..

For the many not the few to 'For the Gentiles, not the Jews'?

.. at least a BBC journalist didn't need protection at the Tory conference.

You're posting things up from your Guido Fawkes Tory boy blogger site to attack The Labour Party and deflect things away from the public school buffoon we have as our embarrassment of a foreign secretary and your beloved Conservative and Unionist Party? I suppose it makes a change from articles in The Daily Telegraph. Still, The Tory conference looks so inspiring and must be really resonating with ordinary people across the country........

 

[Hampster Gull]

Our future PM was on good form today.

The tories look like a stale party, devoid of ideas and leadership to drive this country. Looking inwards and fighting amongst themselves. The labour might be mad but they have a certain something at the moment. God help us all when we have to pick between these two parties. And Viva Brexit

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You're posting things up from your Guido Fawkes Tory boy blogger site to attack The Labour Party and deflect things away from the public school buffoon we have as our embarrassment of a foreign secretary and your beloved Conservative and Unionist Party? I suppose it makes a change from articles in The Daily Telegraph.

I'm posting things that are accurate and from a source Corbynistas didn't mind using when it highlighted Tory embarrassments recently. Lefty hypocrisy shirley not ..

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The tories look like a stale party, devoid of ideas and leadership to drive this country. Looking inwards and fighting amongst themselves. The labour might be mad but they have a certain something at the moment. God help us all when we have to pick between these two parties. And Viva Brexit

Agree with much of that but I don't think a sudden lurch to the left is the answer .. I doubt you do either.

 

[dingodan]

I think May is wavering on Brexit, I would just say we're leaving 2 years after the triggering of article 50. If you want a trade deal we will be ready to sit at the table with you, we are eager for a trade deal, it's in both our interests to have one. But we won't be manipulated or blackmailed into making concessions on our independence, if you don't want to do a deal fine, your loss.

That wouldn't mean no trade with Europe, it would just mean WTO rules. I think the reason she doesn't want to do that isn't because it's unworkable, but because it's politically difficult and the media will have a field day making out it is unworkable and scaring everyone, causing her political problems.

It's sad, grow a spine Theresa May.

 

[Mental Lental]

I think May is wavering on Brexit, I would just say we're leaving 2 years after the triggering of article 50. If you want a trade deal we will be ready to sit at the table with you, we are eager for a trade deal, it's in both our interests to have one. But we won't be manipulated or blackmailed into making concessions on our independence, if you don't want to do a deal fine, your loss.

That wouldn't mean no trade with Europe, it would just mean WTO rules. I think the reason she doesn't want to do that isn't because it's unworkable, but because it's politically difficult and the media will have a field day making out it is unworkable and scaring everyone, causing her political problems.

It's sad, grow a spine Theresa May.

It's a shame, because you appear to be a rare breed of Brexiteer that's actually capable of stringing together a coherent sentence, but unfortunately your advocation that trading under WTO rules is a viable option has flagged you as being just another dribbling Brexit loving chimp banging away on his keyboard. I was actually considering some of your points before you dropped that bombshell.

Hey ho.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think May is wavering on Brexit, I would just say we're leaving 2 years after the triggering of article 50. If you want a trade deal we will be ready to sit at the table with you, we are eager for a trade deal, it's in both our interests to have one. But we won't be manipulated or blackmailed into making concessions on our independence, if you don't want to do a deal fine, your loss.

That wouldn't mean no trade with Europe, it would just mean WTO rules. I think the reason she doesn't want to do that isn't because it's unworkable, but because it's politically difficult and the media will have a field day making out it is unworkable and scaring everyone, causing her political problems.

It's sad, grow a spine Theresa May.

No she isn't wavering just trying to deliver what she promised while dealing with duplicitous sh*ts like Hammond and the Home Secretary. As was always the case we have to be prepared to walk away or at the very least convince the other side we could if we are to secure the best possible deal.