BensGrandad
New member
As has been shown every 15 minutes wasnt enough they needed to be constantly supervised. It takes a second for an accident or child to be abducted or accosted.
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Magic Money Tree given a shake for MADDY
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
As has been shown every 15 minutes wasnt enough they needed to be constantly supervised. It takes a second for an accident or child to be abducted or accosted.
Unfortunately it was common practice in that complex to leave your kids in the evenings. If everyone is doing it, it must be ok. I can understand parents getting convinced their children are not at risk in that situation.
More importantly, they have been punished massively for a mistake that they now have to live with for the rest of their lives yet loads of people act as if they are complicit or even directly involved.
They deserve compassion not accusations.
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
Even if that is true - not good enough was it?
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
They tried and have continued to try to use the press and publicity as a means of drawing attention to their plight and getting their daughter back.
You could debate whether this was the right thing to do for as long as you like, but given their mistake involved leaving their daughter unattended in a public access apartment with an unlocked door, they were very naïve if they didn't believe this would be viewed negatively. Press coverage works both ways.
Psychobilly freakout
HellBilly
The Timeline
10am: The sixth day of the McCanns' week-long holiday in the Algarve. The couple place their daughter, Madeleine and her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, in the Ocean Club's Kids Club while they go for a walk.
12.30pm: After collecting the children, Kate and Gerry head to their apartment, 5a, on ground floor of block five of the Waterside Village Gardens, for lunch before going to the Ocean Club swimming pool.
2.29pm: The last photograph of Madeleine is taken at the pool. The camera clock reads 1.29pm but the family says it was out by one hour.
3.30pm: Children return to Kids Club.
5.30pm: Children eat dinner at Kids Club.
6pm: Kate takes children back to apartment while Gerry goes to an hour-long tennis lesson.
6.30pm: Gerry asks David Payne, one of the so-called "tapas seven", to check on Kate and the children at the apartment.
7pm: Gerry returns to the apartment and the children are put to bed in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and beyond it, the street. Madeleine is placed in the single bed nearest the door. There is an empty bed against the opposite wall beneath the window. Between the two beds are two travel cots containing the twins.
7.30pm: The McCanns shower and change.
8pm: The couple share a bottle of wine together.
8.35pm: The McCanns are the first of the group to arrive at the tapas restaurant, 50 yards away from their apartment.
8.55pm: The group has ordered starters when the routine of checking on the children begins. Matt Oldfield goes to check his own apartment. He also tells the Paynes, who are still in their apartment, that the group is waiting for them at the restaurant.
9.05pm: Gerry returns to the apartment through the unlocked patio doors to check on the children. Earlier that week, the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children's bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.
He enters the apartment and sees that the children's bedroom door, which they always left slightly ajar, is now open to 45 degrees. Thinking this is odd, he glances into his own bedroom to see if Madeleine has gone into her parents' bed. But he sees that all three are still fast asleep where the McCanns left them. Putting the door back to five degrees, he went to the toilet and then returned to the restaurant. This is the last time he would see his daughter.
9.08pm: Gerry sees Jeremy Wilkins, another holidaymaker at the resort, on the opposite side of the road as he walks back to the tapas bar and crosses over to talk. Wilkins and his partner are eating in their apartment since their youngest child will not settle. The two men spend several minutes talking.
9.10pm: Jane Tanner walks up the road, unnoticed by Gerry and Wilkins, although she sees them. She spots a man walking quickly across the top of the road in front of her, going away from the apartment block and heading to the outer road of the resort complex. He is carrying a sleeping girl in pink pyjamas who is hanging limply in his arms. The sighting is odd, but hardly exceptional in a holiday resort. Her daughter is fine; Tanner returns to the table.
9.30pm: Kate gets up to make next check on her children but Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien are checking, too. Oldfield offers to check the McCann's children
In the McCanns' apartment, Oldfield notices the children's bedroom door is open again, but this means little to him. He merely observes all is quiet and makes a cursory glance inside the room seeing the twins in their cot, but not directly seeing Madeleine's bed from the angle at which he stood. Afterwards, he could not say for sure if she had been there or not. Nor could he say if the window and shutter had been open.
He would later get a hard time from the police because of this. During his interviews, he was aggressively accused of taking Madeleine, coming under suspicion because he had offered to take Kate's turn.
10.00pm: Kate checks on the children. She becomes alarmed when she reaches out to the children's bedroom door and it blows shut. Inside the room, the window is open and the shutter is up. The twins are sleeping but Madeleine's bed is empty.
Shortly after 10pm: Rachael Oldfield goes to Tanner's apartment to tell her Madeleine has been taken. Tanner says: "Oh my God. I saw a man carrying a girl."
10.15pm: Oldfield goes down to the 24-hour reception at the bottom of the hill to raise the alarm. Police are called.
10.30pm: Local police are first to arrive on the scene.
11.10pm: Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) arrive having been contacted by police constables.
They see there is a latch lock on the sliding glass window. The McCanns thought, but could not be sure they had locked it at the start of the holiday. Later it was discovered that it was common for cleaners to open the shutters and windows to give the rooms an airing, so there is no way of knowing whether the window was locked that night or not.
Around 4.00am: Physical search for Madeleine is called off, according to witnesses. Detectives from the PJ leave
The most striking thing to me about this timeline is how little quality time they spent with their children during this one day, I personally do not see the point on going on holiday with your family and sticking your kids in the holiday club, maybe at a push in the morning if you wanted to do something ultra important but am and pm seems a bit meh.... and gives the impression they would rather spend the holiday how they wanted regardless of the children, as a walk, tennis, eating and drinking is far more important.
We have stayed in apartments & complexes with Delta and spend every minute we can with her, At the end of the day there is nothing better than putting her to bed then sitting outside in the patio or the balcony enjoying a nice bottle of wine. We make sure she is in our vision asleep in our bed if we are on the balcony, or on the sofa if we are on the patio, and make sure every possible exit is secure or that there is not even one we are not watching or have in our eye line, that is the very best we can do for her safety and I have never compromised that ever. One positive this case has is that it has made far more parents aware of the possible dangers even though it should be common sense.
10am: The sixth day of the McCanns' week-long holiday in the Algarve. The couple place their daughter, Madeleine and her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, in the Ocean Club's Kids Club while they go for a walk.
12.30pm: After collecting the children, Kate and Gerry head to their apartment, 5a, on ground floor of block five of the Waterside Village Gardens, for lunch before going to the Ocean Club swimming pool.
2.29pm: The last photograph of Madeleine is taken at the pool. The camera clock reads 1.29pm but the family says it was out by one hour.
3.30pm: Children return to Kids Club.
5.30pm: Children eat dinner at Kids Club.
6pm: Kate takes children back to apartment while Gerry goes to an hour-long tennis lesson.
6.30pm: Gerry asks David Payne, one of the so-called "tapas seven", to check on Kate and the children at the apartment.
7pm: Gerry returns to the apartment and the children are put to bed in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and beyond it, the street. Madeleine is placed in the single bed nearest the door. There is an empty bed against the opposite wall beneath the window. Between the two beds are two travel cots containing the twins.
7.30pm: The McCanns shower and change.
8pm: The couple share a bottle of wine together.
8.35pm: The McCanns are the first of the group to arrive at the tapas restaurant, 50 yards away from their apartment.
8.55pm: The group has ordered starters when the routine of checking on the children begins. Matt Oldfield goes to check his own apartment. He also tells the Paynes, who are still in their apartment, that the group is waiting for them at the restaurant.
9.05pm: Gerry returns to the apartment through the unlocked patio doors to check on the children. Earlier that week, the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children's bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.
He enters the apartment and sees that the children's bedroom door, which they always left slightly ajar, is now open to 45 degrees. Thinking this is odd, he glances into his own bedroom to see if Madeleine has gone into her parents' bed. But he sees that all three are still fast asleep where the McCanns left them. Putting the door back to five degrees, he went to the toilet and then returned to the restaurant. This is the last time he would see his daughter.
9.08pm: Gerry sees Jeremy Wilkins, another holidaymaker at the resort, on the opposite side of the road as he walks back to the tapas bar and crosses over to talk. Wilkins and his partner are eating in their apartment since their youngest child will not settle. The two men spend several minutes talking.
9.10pm: Jane Tanner walks up the road, unnoticed by Gerry and Wilkins, although she sees them. She spots a man walking quickly across the top of the road in front of her, going away from the apartment block and heading to the outer road of the resort complex. He is carrying a sleeping girl in pink pyjamas who is hanging limply in his arms. The sighting is odd, but hardly exceptional in a holiday resort. Her daughter is fine; Tanner returns to the table.
9.30pm: Kate gets up to make next check on her children but Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien are checking, too. Oldfield offers to check the McCann's children
In the McCanns' apartment, Oldfield notices the children's bedroom door is open again, but this means little to him. He merely observes all is quiet and makes a cursory glance inside the room seeing the twins in their cot, but not directly seeing Madeleine's bed from the angle at which he stood. Afterwards, he could not say for sure if she had been there or not. Nor could he say if the window and shutter had been open.
He would later get a hard time from the police because of this. During his interviews, he was aggressively accused of taking Madeleine, coming under suspicion because he had offered to take Kate's turn.
10.00pm: Kate checks on the children. She becomes alarmed when she reaches out to the children's bedroom door and it blows shut. Inside the room, the window is open and the shutter is up. The twins are sleeping but Madeleine's bed is empty.
Shortly after 10pm: Rachael Oldfield goes to Tanner's apartment to tell her Madeleine has been taken. Tanner says: "Oh my God. I saw a man carrying a girl."
10.15pm: Oldfield goes down to the 24-hour reception at the bottom of the hill to raise the alarm. Police are called.
10.30pm: Local police are first to arrive on the scene.
11.10pm: Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) arrive having been contacted by police constables.
They see there is a latch lock on the sliding glass window. The McCanns thought, but could not be sure they had locked it at the start of the holiday. Later it was discovered that it was common for cleaners to open the shutters and windows to give the rooms an airing, so there is no way of knowing whether the window was locked that night or not.
Around 4.00am: Physical search for Madeleine is called off, according to witnesses. Detectives from the PJ leave
The most striking thing to me about this timeline is how little quality time they spent with their children during this one day, I personally do not see the point on going on holiday with your family and sticking your kids in the holiday club, maybe at a push in the morning if you wanted to do something ultra important but am and pm seems a bit meh.... and gives the impression they would rather spend the holiday how they wanted regardless of the children, as a walk, tennis, eating and drinking is far more important.
We have stayed in apartments & complexes with Delta and spend every minute we can with her, At the end of the day there is nothing better than putting her to bed then sitting outside in the patio or the balcony enjoying a nice bottle of wine. We make sure she is in our vision asleep in our bed if we are on the balcony, or on the sofa if we are on the patio, and make sure every possible exit is secure or that there is not even one we are not watching or have in our eye line, that is the very best we can do for her safety and I have never compromised that ever. One positive this case has is that it has made far more parents aware of the possible dangers even though it should be common sense.
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What this has got to do with showing them compassion is beyond me.
They are trying to find out what happened to their daughter knowing full well they are going to get abuse for it.
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
But they have been shown compassion... by some.
Leaving your children unattended in the way they did is a highly emotive point. How many other children have gone missing under less controversial circumstances but not had anything like the press coverage enjoyed by the McCanns?
The fact this is still being reported and encouraged by the McCanns after 10 years is what is winding people up. Yes, as parents they will always keep looking but so will many other parents who haven't enjoyed the same treatment.
For some compassion will only go so far....
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
According the Timeline it wasn't even 100 yards, it was 50 yards. It was common practise in the complex.
We now know it wasn't safe, but as I pointed out a lot earlier in the thread, it was common practise in holiday camps like Pontins, Butlins and Warners. I did it myself.
I cannot be holier than thou, like a lot of people on this thread, because I did it at Pontins in 1974, as did thousands of other people.
It's great being wise after the event.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Did Ben Needham's mother get millions spent looking for him
Yes, the people of Sheffield raised quite a lot.
You seem a lot more worried about the cost, and money, rather than the fate of Maddy.
Exactly, but public opinion would have been turned, lead by the likes of the Daily Mail digging into the family looking for stories that underline it's readership preconceptions.
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
I would humbly suggest not doing it in the first place would better.
That's not holier than thou - its just common sense.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
It is now, but child abduction is so rare, it wouldn't have occurred to them. It certainly didn't to me 40 years ago. I relied on chalet maids walking around the camp listening out for babies and children crying.
Lots of the old timers on here have sat outside pubs with a bag of crisps and a lemonade, long before there were any beer gardens.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
Of the millions and millions of kids from the UK that have gone on holiday in the decades between Ben Needham and Madeleine, we thankfully have few tragic mysteries. Accidents, yes hundreds, maybe thousands most likely, traffic accidents, drownings, falls, electrocutions, food poisoning, severe cuts etc. etc.
I'd secure my 3 safe yes, but wouldn't feel the need to have an eye on them as long as I could hear them. In the McCann scenario, my biggest fear would be one of them falling out of bed and cracking their head. This did actually happen to one of mine once and a trip to A&E. I'd have secured the apartment not through fear of abduction, mainly opportunistic theft. I wouldn't have left them like this case because a slip in the bathroom, falling over, getting a glass of water and dropping it and treading on the glass etc. etc. these would have been my thoughts about leaving them. Feeling like at any given moment someone might take your kid - not sure I can live like that.
I honestly think we have too much fear as parents from the media as it is. This isn't a criticism of you in the slightest, being secure etc. and isn't really any different to what I'm saying, just whether that fear is based on the most likely things to happen, or the most unlikely.
Wizard, I am no 'petal', and I was referring to the comments made by some on here who appeared to be making light of the loss of a child.
I am not saying that the parents were not partially responsible for what happened.
Sorry you misunderstood me, flower.
Psychobilly freakout
HellBilly
Amen, I hear you mine can be riding down to the level and all kind of scenarios run through my head, and yes I maybe over protective I actually caught myself shouting to her once at the level shouting "don't run"..... I mean even I realise that's absurd...
My defence is she's an only child and my past in a foster home was not ideal so I somewhat over analyses stuff, I try not too but can't help it sometimes.
This, as always it's always about class with him, insecure and not happy with his lot I'd say, but like many probably feels entitled and not prepared to work hard to improve his lot!
Did she get millions off the government
Here's some more gum flapping, in 2015 alone the Police spent £513,221 in the search for Ben, he went missing in 1991!