[Politics] Brexit

[nicko31]

Remember however that: immigrants pay in to the economy and help pay down the national debt. Immigrants are young and do not use many social services. Immigrants subsidise your services. Immigrants staff sectors of the UK economy that natives won't. Immigrants very often highly skilled. Immigrants are essential to the running of the NHS (nurses, doctors, cleaners etc).

And they do a lot of work that a whole load of Brits aren't interested in doing. Try finding Brits who want to work 12 hours a day for 6 months straight to pick Strawberries in the Thames Valley

We need them in skilled and unskilled parts of the economy, to suggest they are responsible for piling on the national debt as someone suggested is preposterous

I

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

And they do a lot of work that a whole load of Brits aren't interested in doing. Try finding Brits who want to work 12 hours a day for 6 months straight to pick Strawberries in the Thames Valley

We need them in skilled and unskilled parts of the economy, to suggest they are responsible for piling on the national debt as someone suggested is preposterous

I

You are justifying immigration on the basis of mass exploitation. You are advocating very right wing politics.

 

[nicko31]

Another nail in the EU coffin and another craw in the throat of the EU federalists. This slow collapse of the discredited idiot union is most pleasurable. As is the pain from some posting on here. Beautiful.

Brexit or no Brexit, a weak European will not help us. You are letting your nationalist agenda take over reality, Euro holding steady, up markets up this morning, sorry...

 

[larus]

Brexit or no Brexit, a weak European will not help us. You are letting your nationalist agenda take over reality, Euro holding steady, up markets up this morning, sorry...

Which European is weak? Renzi? Guess you mean him, as he's resigned. So, the "up markets up". Is the "down markets down" too?

Being serious, as this vote had been predicted, I would expect that there has been 'activity' by governments/ECB to protect Italian Banking Shares and the Euro. I wouldn't be surprised to see events turn over the next few weeks once financial markets question the sustainability of the Italian Banks and also the willingness to buy Italian debt.

 

[5ways]

You are justifying immigration on the basis of mass exploitation. You are advocating very right wing politics.

They're being paid a higher wage than they would receive in their home country and benefit UK consumers through lower prices. That's how capitalism works, unless you're advocating very left wing politics?

 

[nicko31]

They're being paid a higher wage than they would receive in their home country and benefit UK consumers through lower prices. That's how capitalism works, unless you're advocating very left wing politics?

Actually my friend runs a market garden, few Brits apply for work. The staff are paid higher than the living wage plus a bonus for volume picked. Some have earned £2000 in a week in peak season, its hard work though and you have to get up early

 

[Soulman]

Actually my friend runs a market garden, few Brits apply for work. The staff are paid higher than the living wage plus a bonus for volume picked. Some have earned £2000 in a week in peak season, its hard work though and you have to get up early

So 300,000 new immigrants this year should provide enough strawberry pickers and doctors and nurses to cover the influx then. Hopefully the roads and houses can also cope.

 

[BigGully]

Brexit or no Brexit, a weak European will not help us. You are letting your nationalist agenda take over reality, Euro holding steady, up markets up this morning, sorry...

Any political area is weak if their people do not believe in it, you seem to think the EU is some paralell universe, as something no matter how its governed must prevail, its broken, I guess they will try to fix it whilst perversly changing it to something that doesnt reflect how it is today, whilst you continue to still support it no matter what ...

 

[nicko31]

Which European is weak? Renzi? Guess you mean him, as he's resigned. So, the "up markets up". Is the "down markets down" too?

Being serious, as this vote had been predicted, I would expect that there has been 'activity' by governments/ECB to protect Italian Banking Shares and the Euro. I wouldn't be surprised to see events turn over the next few weeks once financial markets question the sustainability of the Italian Banks and also the willingness to buy Italian debt.

A weak Europe that's what I meant

 

[larus]

Any political area is weak if their people do not believe in it, you seem to think the EU is some paralell universe, as something no matter how its governed must prevail, its broken, I guess they will try to fix it whilst perversly changing it to something that doesnt reflect how it is today, whilst you continue to still support it no matter what ...

Exactly. And what a lot of the EU supporters/Remainers don't seem to want to acknowledge is the high level of dissatisfaction in many countries with both the existing political classes within their own countries and also the EU.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes, I was stereotyping the average man as having a thick neck and a build reminiscent of a nightclub doorman.

The target to run a surplus has gone because of the extra borrowing Brexit has caused and will cause, and the loss of revenues and growth. However, the cuts that were made to facilitate it are still there. Getting into surplus and paying down national debt is not something I am against, though I think the time frame was too short. Wouldn't it be nice if we could leave a lesser tax burden on our children and grandchildren, rather than heaping it up for them.
It is strange that many of the people who suffered and are suffering from the cuts in services and the pay freezes, made in order to get our country back in the black, were willing to take us deeper into the red, into recession and an unknown period of economic gloominess and extra borrowing, to get our country back.

To be fair there are probably some people after an occasional visit to Brighton who stereotype the average man in the usual derogatory terminology, all very unnesssacery and dissapointing.

Osborne was still falling well short of reaching it without Brexit so deeper harder cuts would have been needed to reach the Surplus target. As for OBR/Treasury/IFS guesswork on future growth and debt figures who knows how accurate they will be. Agree with you on the general principle on paying down national debt also on the time frame.

Yes you know the future, a common gift for many remainers. Can you advise me on exactly when this recession will finally arrive as the Treasury prediction has turned out to be somewhat inaccurate.

 

[Baldseagull]

Is the UK a project of Union that is perfect, where all regions and people feel they are treated equally, or do sometimes people march, protest, lobby, campaign etc for change?
Me believing that the EU is worth sticking with and working with, to improve the lot of all Europeans, does not mean I believe it is a perfect organisation where all the MEP's, Councillors and Commisioners are saints and can do no wrong.
I have stuck up for much of what the EU does, because when Farage and others say we have had so many laws forced upon us, that UK Government voted against, he never tells you what those laws are, because most of us would be glad the EU voted them in.
When Farage says we have x pieces of legislation we are forced to adopt, he doesn't tell you that 99% of that is product standards for safety, or consumer protection.
The sovereignty issue is not about these things, Farage and other eurosceptic Tories do not care about the clean air, cleaner beaches, and health and safety at wotk stuff forced upon us, but they know it riles people up when presented that way.

The part of shared sovereignty they want back, is the ability to make deals with other nations of the world independantly of the EU, and the ability to out compete our neighbours by not having the same restrictions on how hard you can work your employees, how you can sweeten a deal for a foreign investor, and how much care you need to take of the environment.

It is nice to see so many of you concerned for our neighbours and the difficulties they are facing, and I can agree with you that the Euro is at the heart of the problems for some, that refugee arrivals are not being handled fairly by the EU and the recipient countries are not helped enough.
But at the same time you voted to leave them to it, many saying, we don't want those refugees here, we don't want to get sucked in to any financial bail out for our neighbours. Your vote, should it lead to a hard brexit as many of you want, will not only be damaging for Britain, it will also bring economic damage to the EU.
The sympathy on here is that of the hit and run driver looking in the mirror, of course you didn't want any harm to come to them, but far too busy looking out for number one to stop and help.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Why do you stick up for the European Union? It has vested huge pain on the people of Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. But maybe they don't count as they are 'only' brown skinned?

You be racist if you want, leave me out of it.

Why are those countries screwed? Mainly because of laziness, possibly caused by a warmer climate than most of the EU. The French as a nation call the Spanish lazy, northern Italy is the powerhouse of the Italian economy, the south, the HOT bit, is not, for Portugal read Spain, and Greece? Just look at their unrealistic expectations about length of holidays, second jobs while not turning up at the first, and ridiculously low pension ages. Blame political Europe for its many faults by all means, but don't try to use pro EU racism for the ills of a few basket case countries, cos you is plainly talking utter tripe.

 

[Baldseagull]

To be fair there are probably some people after an occasional visit to Brighton who stereotype the average man in the usual derogatory terminology, all very unnesssacery and dissapointing.

Osborne was still falling well short of reaching it without Brexit so deeper harder cuts would have been needed to reach the Surplus target. As for OBR/Treasury/IFS guesswork on future growth and debt figures who knows how accurate they will be. Agree with you on the general principle on paying down national debt also on the time frame.

Yes you know the future, a common gift for many remainers. Can you advise me on exactly when this recession will finally arrive as the Treasury prediction has turned out to be somewhat inaccurate.

I am sure we will have a further slow down, and recession when article 50 is put in action, and that it will get worse as the negotiations drag on. Those businesses that require access to the single market will need some sort of assurance pretty quick that they will either be compensated or have access, if we do not want at least part of their operations to relocate. We won't know for sure until at least 6 months after it has happened, we may even get into a small one in the new year after the Christmas spend, before we trigger A50, dependant on the nature of the Government leaks that seem to keep appearing.
It will happen, and the longer the negotiations, and the harder the eventual Brexit, the worse it will be.

My point is not dependent on what I thought or think would happen to the economy though. I made the point that many who voted leave believed there would be a period of economic gloom, perhaps lasting years, that they were willing to go through to secure freedom from the perceived tyranny of the EU.

 

[nicko31]

Is the UK a project of Union that is perfect, where all regions and people feel they are treated equally, or do sometimes people march, protest, lobby, campaign etc for change?
Me believing that the EU is worth sticking with and working with, to improve the lot of all Europeans, does not mean I believe it is a perfect organisation where all the MEP's, Councillors and Commisioners are saints and can do no wrong.
I have stuck up for much of what the EU does, because when Farage and others say we have had so many laws forced upon us, that UK Government voted against, he never tells you what those laws are, because most of us would be glad the EU voted them in.
When Farage says we have x pieces of legislation we are forced to adopt, he doesn't tell you that 99% of that is product standards for safety, or consumer protection.
The sovereignty issue is not about these things, Farage and other eurosceptic Tories do not care about the clean air, cleaner beaches, and health and safety at wotk stuff forced upon us, but they know it riles people up when presented that way.

The part of shared sovereignty they want back, is the ability to make deals with other nations of the world independantly of the EU, and the ability to out compete our neighbours by not having the same restrictions on how hard you can work your employees, how you can sweeten a deal for a foreign investor, and how much care you need to take of the environment.

It is nice to see so many of you concerned for our neighbours and the difficulties they are facing, and I can agree with you that the Euro is at the heart of the problems for some, that refugee arrivals are not being handled fairly by the EU and the recipient countries are not helped enough.
But at the same time you voted to leave them to it, many saying, we don't want those refugees here, we don't want to get sucked in to any financial bail out for our neighbours. Your vote, should it lead to a hard brexit as many of you want, will not only be damaging for Britain, it will also bring economic damage to the EU.
The sympathy on here is that of the hit and run driver looking in the mirror, of course you didn't want any harm to come to them, but far too busy looking out for number one to stop and help.

Blimey 23000 posts, and I have to say one of the best.

As a great nation we should be part of the solution, instead we're now part of the problem and ultimately we're bring more problems on ourselves and the greater Europe.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You be racist if you want, leave me out of it.

Why are those countries screwed? Mainly because of laziness, possibly caused by a warmer climate than most of the EU. The French as a nation call the Spanish lazy, northern Italy is the powerhouse of the Italian economy, the south, the HOT bit, is not, for Portugal read Spain, and Greece? Just look at their unrealistic expectations about length of holidays, second jobs while not turning up at the first, and ridiculously low pension ages. Blame political Europe for its many faults by all means, but don't try to use pro EU racism for the ills of a few basket case countries, cos you is plainly talking utter tripe.

Southern Italy is agricultural and tourism. Southern Italians used to have lots of disposable income, things used to be cheap when they had the Lire and I would say at one time they had a far better living standard than we did. Soon as they went over to the euro things became more expensive. My auntie passed away 8 years ago, she hated every aspect of the euro. This currency for everyone doesn't work. It suits countries like Germany, but not Italy.

 

[wellquickwoody]

You are justifying immigration on the basis of mass exploitation. You are advocating very right wing politics.

You really are trying the racism card today.

Strawberry picking exists, someone somewhere will do it. The farmer can pay higher wages and see the crop rot in the warehouse as the supermarkets will not pay the higher prices needed to allow higher wages. Alternatively, supermarkets can increase their prices to the retail customer, OK by me but not by many. At the same time you may then see far higher imports of strawberries from abroad as their prices become more competitive compared to our home grown stuff. Or.......you can offer work to those that actually want it at lower levels than those needed to motivate our own unskilled labour force, crops get picked and consumers get a low price end product. Nothing right wing in any of the above, just simple economics, but that doesn't suit your agenda does it?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I am sure we will have a further slow down, and recession when article 50 is put in action, and that it will get worse as the negotiations drag on. Those businesses that require access to the single market will need some sort of assurance pretty quick that they will either be compensated or have access, if we do not want at least part of their operations to relocate. We won't know for sure until at least 6 months after it has happened, we may even get into a small one in the new year after the Christmas spend, before we trigger A50, dependant on the nature of the Government leaks that seem to keep appearing.
It will happen, and the longer the negotiations, and the harder the eventual Brexit, the worse it will be.

My point is not dependent on what I thought or think would happen to the economy though. I made the point that many who voted leave believed there would be a period of economic gloom, perhaps lasting years, that they were willing to go through to secure freedom from the perceived tyranny of the EU.

We will see how it all plays out I just know that many people have been surprised at how robust our economic performance has been post referendum which has proved the' immediately after vote' predictions wrong. Perhaps it will get worse after triggering article 50 or maybe not .. perhaps after the negotiations are finally concluded and we leave .. or perhaps not. There seems to be far to much certianity on one side of the argument and very little appetite to consider the possibility Brexit may not be that bad after all.

 

[Billy the Fish]

You really are trying the racism card today.

Strawberry picking exists, someone somewhere will do it. The farmer can pay higher wages and see the crop rot in the warehouse as the supermarkets will not pay the higher prices needed to allow higher wages. Alternatively, supermarkets can increase their prices to the retail customer, OK by me but not by many. At the same time you may then see far higher imports of strawberries from abroad as their prices become more competitive compared to our home grown stuff. Or.......you can offer work to those that actually want it at lower levels than those needed to motivate our own unskilled labour force, crops get picked and consumers get a low price end product. Nothing right wing in any of the above, just simple economics, but that doesn't suit your agenda does it?

Again, this will still function perfectly fine whether we're in the EU or not. Plenty of Brits backpacking in Australia get jobs picking fruit, they just have to get a work visa. All you need is a process for seasonal working visas, the company will sponsor the employee and they'll be allowed to stay and work for a certain period.

It really isn't difficult, the government won't allow industries to just fall apart overnight, it would be political suicide.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I hope 5SM/Northern League/ Mafia club together and get Italy to vote out of Euro, that;s a real banger compared to the squib of Brexit.

Just out of interest, why would you like Italy to leave the Euro? Your arguments on here have been based almost entirely on what you feel is best for Britain, so, to put it more specifically, in what way do you think an Italian departure and the resulting collateral chaos in the Eurozone would be good for our country? (I ask because some have a feeling that among the various reasons for people voting Out was that they so much liked the idea of sticking two fingers up at certain foreign types - the men with shiny shoes and small moustaches as Matthew Parris once wonderfully defined them - that they didn't even mind if Britain and its people were damaged as a result, even assuming that that prospect had occurred to them.)