[Politics] Brexit

[Green Cross Code Man]

The EU is a symbol of hope and a coming together of nations previously at war for hundreds of years. It is a symbol of common ground, mutual interests, the benefit of the many not the few. The world can be a better place if countries come together and strive hand in hand to make the world a better place. Our United Kingdom of countries gave us the Great in Britain, and being at the heart of Europe makes us stronger, to support and be supported by our neighbours. It was the dream in 1945, and we should strive to continue that dream and to MAKE IT WORK. We are British, we don't back out of things when it gets tough, we don't shirk taking responsibility. We need to stay, they need us.

We're at heart of a terrible global recession, of austerity, times are hard but the blame doesn't lie with the EU or immigration. We need to engage with the EU, reaching out is far better than withdrawing inward.

Vote remain.

A symbol of hope? Tell that too the Greeks and Spanish with near 25% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment. Tell that to several other major countries to, who aren't far behind like Italy. Those people don't need hope, they need a miracle. Without control of their economies, they are at the behest of the German bankers. And it's not the EU that has stopped us fighting, it's NATO.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The EU is a symbol of hope and a coming together of nations previously at war for hundreds of years. It is a symbol of common ground, mutual interests, the benefit of the many not the few. The world can be a better place if countries come together and strive hand in hand to make the world a better place. Our United Kingdom of countries gave us the Great in Britain, and being at the heart of Europe makes us stronger, to support and be supported by our neighbours. It was the dream in 1945, and we should strive to continue that dream and to MAKE IT WORK. We are British, we don't back out of things when it gets tough, we don't shirk taking responsibility. We need to stay, they need us.

We're at heart of a terrible global recession, of austerity, times are hard but the blame doesn't lie with the EU or immigration. We need to engage with the EU, reaching out is far better than withdrawing inward.

Vote remain.

And Osbourne wants to make it harder for people if we Leave by increasing taxes and making further cuts. I'm sorry but it doesn't stack up anymore, it feels very engineered. I hope people can see through it and vote Leave on June 23rd.

 

[Jim in the West]

And Osbourne wants to make it harder for people if we Leave by increasing taxes and making further cuts. I'm sorry but it doesn't stack up anymore, it feels very engineered. I hope people can see through it and vote Leave on June 23rd.

There will DEFINITELY be tax increases and spending cuts after a Brexit (although it may not be Osborne imposing them). Even the leading pro-Brexit economist predicts that the UK economy will contract by £40bn - £60bn pa in the years leading up to an exit, and for a couple of years thereafter. The fact that the UK economy will be smaller in the short to medium term is not disputed by anyone (as far as I know). Of course, theoretically we could just borrow more, but we would have to do so in an environment where our credit rating will have suffered, and the cost of servicing debt will increase. The pain is likely to go on for somewhere between 5 - 10 years. The Brexit argument is that in the long run we will be better off - but the long run could be a LONG time.

 

[cunning fergus]

You've proved my point. This is fueled in part by an anti-establishment vote, regardless of the rights and wrongs. We have our politicians to thank for this more than anyone else. There are economists and other experts on the left and right warning against leaving.

The public will decide. I just fear what they will decide.

Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

Then the "intelligentsia" deserve what (hopefully) is coming, because they have been the tail wagging the dog.

Rather than blame the working class for their desire to give the establishment a bloody nose you should look at the political conduct of the establishment.

It is telling now that even those in the remain camp are advocating reform of freedom of movement, proof if it was needed that politicians cannot be trusted to act in the people's interest.........they have to be dragged and forced.

They are reaping what they sowed.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

There will DEFINITELY be tax increases and spending cuts after a Brexit (although it may not be Osborne imposing them). Even the leading pro-Brexit economist predicts that the UK economy will contract by £40bn - £60bn pa in the years leading up to an exit, and for a couple of years thereafter. The fact that the UK economy will be smaller in the short to medium term is not disputed by anyone (as far as I know). Of course, theoretically we could just borrow more, but we would have to do so in an environment where our credit rating will have suffered, and the cost of servicing debt will increase. The pain is likely to go on for somewhere between 5 - 10 years. The Brexit argument is that in the long run we will be better off - but the long run could be a LONG time.

Could be tax increases, it feels like bullying. Nobody knows what will happen, what is real is the stock market is down, when we Remain a few people will get rich because it will shoot back up again, we will back in the same place, Brussels has the green light and we have absolutely no say in who comes to our country. All a bit engineered for me I'm afraid. I'm not buying any of it. We are run by big banks, the EU, politicians who are doing all OK.

 

[Jim in the West]

Then the "intelligentsia" deserve what (hopefully) is coming, because they have been the tail wagging the dog.

Rather than blame the working class for their desire to give the establishment a bloody nose you should look at the political conduct of the establishment.

It is telling now that even those in the remain camp are advocating reform of freedom of movement, proof if it was needed that politicians cannot be trusted to act in the people's interest.........they have to be dragged and forced.

They are reaping what they sowed.

Unfortunately, it will not be the "intelligentsia" who suffer. Virtually everyone (even pro-Brexit economists) think the UK will be worse off financially - certainly in the short to medium term, and mostly in the long term, too. It's very unfair, but those who will suffer as a result will be the low paid, the unemployed, those requiring health and social care. The average bloke in the pub may be able to say "yah boo sucks" to the establishment after a Brexit vote, but he may live to regret a decision taken in anger...

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

You seem to have been selective in your choice of the Leave supporters. What about Vladimir Putin?

There will be dancing in the corridors of the kremlin if we leave the EU.

 

[Jim in the West]

Could be tax increases, it feels like bullying. Nobody knows what will happen, what is real is the stock market is down, when we Remain a few people will get rich because it will shoot back up again, we will back in the same place, Brussels has the green light and we have absolutely no say in who comes to our country. All a bit engineered for me I'm afraid. I'm not buying any of it. We are run by big banks, the EU, politicians who are doing all OK.

And after a Brexit we will still be run by big banks and politicians. And those politicians will definitely NOT have the interests of the average person at heart. And we will not escape the EU, by the way - they will still largely determine much of what we do (it's just that we won't have any say at all). The post-Brexit world might seem very tempting for some, but it will solve virtually nothing - and make us all poorer!

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Remain and we have absolutely no way of controlling free movement. Remain have no answers for the numbers of people that are likely to come here, an open door to hundreds of millions of people, Remain also have no answers on where they are going to build all the extra houses, schools, hospitals.

All the argument is for is this economy, which can go in to go either way whether Remain or Leave.

I agree, the answerrs are vague on where the extra houses, schools, hospitals will come from. But Leave have also not spelt out their plans for the extra houses, schools, hospitals either.

 

[cunning fergus]

I am sorry but the idea that migrants are taking British born peoples jobs just doesn't stand up. How does a migrant who might speak very little english get a job over someone British born and educated? The answer is the British born people are not going for the same jobs as they simply are not interested.

I am speaking from experience here as someone who has spent most of their working lives as a Manager in companies that employed staff at close to the national minimum wage. A national cleaning and security company i worked for had 7000 employees and the vast majority of applications for work came from migrants.

We have a work ethic problem here where there are a large number of British born people would rather stay on benefits than do unskilled low paid work.

Not surprisingly you are missing the point.

This survey proves that 9 out of 10 EU workers earn less than 22k, therefore they are low paid and competing with our own British low paid working class.

Your sense of prejudice that British people are not in low paid jobs, competing with this cohort of EU citizens is absurd.

In the last 2 days finally Labour MPs that are pro remain are conceding that the traditional working class is lost to them for this reason, check out Rachel Reeves on the politics show yesterday explaining that her constituents (in a traditional labour constituency) were voting leave.

This truth, is not to ignore the other truth that if 90% of EU migrants earn less than 22k their tax contribution is risible.

 

[Maldini]

We'll need an emergency budget if we vote leave to stop our economy from collapsing?OMG.Project Fear is out of control and until next week will get worse.For all those Remainers who dare to accuse Leave of scaremongering even you must finally concede Cameron and his henchmen are totally taking the p.....

 

[Ernest]

A budget punishing people would never get voted through parliament

 

[Maldini]

http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

So the majority of Europeans think a UK departure would hurt the EU?And?I don't get it?

 

[Brovion]

You're right, we don't elect commissioners nor the president, the same that we don't elect members of our civil service or even, for that matter, who we want to be Prime Minister. There is a commissioner for each member state and they are given, for want of a better word, a portfolio. It is their job to establish what laws the member states want to introduce and then to draft the law. They do not, as Brexit seem to suggest, sit away in locked towers coming up with their own hair brained schemes that every country is against but must abide by. MEPs then vote on the laws. In terms of reimbursement, then I agree there may well be serious grounds for review. As for Kinnock, I don't like the man but are you sure he is earning £2m a year from the EU?

The fact remains that it's 'top down'. When we vote in our domestic elections we vote for a party who have put forward a legisaltive programme in a manifesto. We broadly know what they plan to do and we can vote for the one who best matches what we want. We can't do that in European elections. Prospective Euro MEPs can't knock on your door and say that they will (in coalition with other like-minded European parties) try and do X, Y and Z if they form the majority. All they can do is discuss the topics that have been handed down to them; the domestic equivalent would be if the House of Commons could only debate issues that have been given to them by the (appointed not elected) House of Lords. The whole thing is about as 'democratic' as the Duma (Russian parliament) was in the days of the Tzar - and at least the Duma didn't go through a hideously expensive shift between two towns once a year.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I agree, the answerrs are vague on where the extra houses, schools, hospitals will come from. But Leave have also not spelt out their plans for the extra houses, schools, hospitals either.

But having controlled immigration over time would reduce the pressure on our infrastructure. We can plan, we can't at the moment because we don't know who is coming.

We had a better economy years ago, it worked and we had less people.

 

[Seagull27]

Yes, and it seems likely, if the polls are indicative of anything, that all these threats are backfiring.

I'm still waiting for people in remain to explain what is really really good about the EU. Never have so many words been spoken in defence of a regime which is so little loved.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

Science is one area. We get far more out of the EU in science funding than we put in - over €3 billion more. Of course we could increase funding to alleviate that in the event of a brexit, but there's no guarantee we would, especially if we have an economic downturn.

Not to mention that the way EU science grants work means that we'd miss out on having many of Europe's top quality scientists coming over here and contributing vital research to the UK.

It's no surprise that a large majority of UK scientists are in favour of remain - I can tell you that many are extremely worried about the state of academic science should we leave.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

 

[El Presidente]

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

The co-chair Patrick Minford, was previously the head of my department at Uni.

He was an advisor to Thatcher and one of the architects of the poll tax.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But having controlled immigration over time would reduce the pressure on our infrastructure. We can plan, we can't at the moment because we don't know who is coming.

We had a better economy years ago, it worked and we had less people.

Population still had to grow though - that is fundamentally how an economy grows. Our population is growing older, needing more care, more finance, the Tories haven't touched immigration because it would harm the economy - we're not currently turning away migrants from outside the EU, we're still welcoming them. I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed if you think leaving will reduce immigration, this whole 'controlled' immigration is a fallacy, it won't happen, it hasn't happened to those outside the EU because the economy needs the people coming in. You don't want to vote out the EU, it's capitalism if you want out if you want our population to stop growing.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Yes, and it seems likely, if the polls are indicative of anything, that all these threats are backfiring.

I'm still waiting for people in remain to explain what is really really good about the EU. Never have so many words been spoken in defence of a regime which is so little loved.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

No, you're not waiting for people to explain, you're not listening. A lot of time has been spent pointing out all the good the EU does, and if you want a refresher there are several threads running to over 100 pages that are full of it. But every point is met with a brick wall, you Leavers don't want to know, don't want to debate, can't bring yourself to acknowledge anything good in the EU or that couldn't be done better outside the EU. Honestly, ts frustrating.

 

[sten_super]

The fact remains that it's 'top down'. When we vote in our domestic elections we vote for a party who have put forward a legisaltive programme in a manifesto. We broadly know what they plan to do and we can vote for the one who best matches what we want. We can't do that in European elections. Prospective Euro MEPs can't knock on your door and say that they will (in coalition with other like-minded European parties) try and do X, Y and Z if they form the majority. All they can do is discuss the topics that have been handed down to them; the domestic equivalent would be if the House of Commons could only debate issues that have been given to them by the (appointed not elected) House of Lords. The whole thing is about as 'democratic' as the Duma (Russian parliament) was in the days of the Tzar - and at least the Duma didn't go through a hideously expensive shift between two towns once a year.

Genuine question here, from someone who favours Remain - how would you do it better? Specifically, how would you do it better without removing power from the (genuinely) democratically elected leaders of the Member States?

I agree that there is a democractic deficit in the EU. I just don't see how you can fix it short of complete political union (which would then open up the possibility of a more House of Commons-style system of accountability). At the moment the leaders of the Member States appoint the Commissioners and set the overall agenda of the EU (as well as voting on key issues, most of which are settled by unanimity), giving them a role in shaping the direction which is then handed to the Commissioners and the Commission to deal with to the best of their abilities, and then the MEPs (which, unfortunately, nobody seems to elect on the basis of any serious issues) and Member State leaders are able to vote on and agree/disagree. How do you improve that system without removing national level oversight? Or is it simply an all-or-nothing offer? Either complete political union or no union at all?