ITV Referendum debate

[dingodan]

From the 250m we did pay we then got around 100m back in regional development funds (helping to create jobs in areas of high unemployment for example) and things like widening participation in education. These are genuine benefits that the UK government didn't/couldn't/wouldn't spend money on but play an important role in underpinning our economy.

This is what it comes down to. The EU forces us to spend money on things you agree with, our democratically elected government may (in your view) not have spent that money in the same way. But we control the UK government, we don't control the EU government. So when they force us to spend money on things you disagree with, and say we have a Labour government who has plans you agree with that it cannot implement due to a lack of resources, then maybe you will understand what I am saying. You are chosing a dictatorship which (today) you agree with, over a democracy which (today) has polcy views you don't agree with. But you can change one if you want to. You cannot change the other.

 

[dingodan]

As a school governor we've had 'British Values' in the curriculum this last year and it's something we've worked on in school. That has manifested itself in a celebration of how outward looking Great Britain has always been. Explorers, inventors, we've spread our ingenuity, our willingness to share, to improve, to welcome and embrace. This to me is what Britishness is.

& it never required EU membership in order to happen. If we leave we will be as outward facing and as engaged as ever. But we will also be self determined. I am all for partnerships and cooperation, but things need to be done on a voluntary basis and with the consent of the people.

I believe in Europe too, I love Europe. & I think we can have a better relationship with the rest of Europe when it is based on mutual respect and a respect for each others boundaries. I don't want, and I don't feel we have the right, to tell any other nation in Europe how they should run their country or how they should live. & I don't feel any other nation should tell us how to run our country or how to live. That is how you have a good relationship with others, by being responsible for yourself and not trying to control others. Relationships based on controlling each other are the most destructive kinds of relationships.

We will always be part of Europe, it's a continent we are a part of. This is about a Political system, it has nothing to do with the romance of Europe (which is very romantic), it has to do with power and control, which I feel should always be reserved for the people, be they the people of France, or Spain or Germany or the UK or any other country.

 

[Bold Seagull]

& it never required EU membership in order to happen. If we leave we will be as outward facing and as engaged as ever. But we will also be self determined. I am all for partnerships and cooperation, but things need to be done on a voluntary basis and with the consent of the people.

I believe in Europe too, I love Europe. & I think we can have a better relationship with the rest of Europe when it is based on mutual respect and a respect for each others boundaries. I don't want, and I don't feel we have the right, to tell any other nation in Europe how they should run their country or how they should live. & I don't feel any other nation should tell us how to run our country or how to live. That is how you have a good relationship with others, by being responsible for yourself and not trying to control others. Relationships based on controlling each other are the most destructive kinds of relationships.

We will always be part of Europe, it's a continent we are a part of. This is about a Political system, it has nothing to do with the romance of Europe (which is very romantic), it has to do with power and control, which I feel should always be reserved for the people, be they the people of France, or Spain or Germany or the UK or any other country.

Well, that is a very good post to counter my own points. We're in danger of engaging in an informative, respectful, well reasoned honest EU debate here. We'd better stop now, you idiot.

 

[dingodan]

Well, that is a very good post to counter my own points. We're in danger of engaging in an informative, respectful, well reasoned honest EU debate here. We'd better stop now, you idiot.

lol. I agree, it's such a shame we can't have a respectful and reasonable debate as a nation, it's what we really need.

 

[lawros left foot]

Don't patronise me. Yes, I fully understand how the European Parliament works, I have an Internet connection, and have googled it, the same as you o doubt.

My point is,that I care deeply about democracy, so much so, that I believe we should put our own house in order, before we take on the European system. We are tied to a constitutional monarchy, with a completely unelected second chamber, and a House of Commons, with a voting system rigged for the benefit of the two main parties. If any of the politicians, on either side, really cared about democracy, they would have instituted a fair voting system where every vote counts, an alternative second chamber, elected by the people, and consigned the Royal assent to the dustbin of history, then, maybe , they could pontificate about Sovreignty and democracy

 

[dingodan]

Don't patronise me. Yes, I fully understand how the European Parliament works, I have an Internet connection, and have googled it, the same as you o doubt.

My point is,that I care deeply about democracy, so much so, that I believe we should put our own house in order, before we take on the European system. We are tied to a constitutional monarchy, with a completely unelected second chamber, and a House of Commons, with a voting system rigged for the benefit of the two main parties. If any of the politicians, on either side, really cared about democracy, they would have instituted a fair voting system where every vote counts, an alternative second chamber, elected by the people, and consigned the Royal assent to the dustbin of history, then, maybe , they could pontificate about Sovreignty and democracy

You can't on the one hand care deeply about democracy, and on the other hand support staying in the EU. You can certainly argue that the argument about the EU being anti-democratic is hypocracy when it comes from politicains who you feel could have strengthened democracy here in this country and have chosen not to. But I am not a politician who has failed to strengthen UK democracy, so I am not a hypocrite.

& someone being a hypocrite actually doesn't void their argument. If a thief says that theft is wrong, they are a hypocrite. They are also correct.

What you are doing is a form of logical fallacy, it's called Tu quoque, which means "you also".

Tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/; Latin for, "you also") or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the validity of the opponent's logical argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

Tu quoque "argument" follows the pattern:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
Therefore X is false.

It is a fallacy because the moral character or past actions of the opponent are generally irrelevant to the logic of the argument. It is often used as a red herring tactic and is a special case of the ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

 

[lawros left foot]

As I say, don't patronise me.
I fully understand that a hypocrite can be in the right, I'm a parent.
I didn't call you a hypocrite, it was more the politicians on both sides, including all the Kippers who are trousering the EU Danegeld, and rarely turning up to vote.
When our system as been fully reformed, and every vote counts, then I will be willing to respect the arguements about Brussels being an unelected autocracy put forward by both sides of the arguement



I'm not holding my breath, though

 

[dingodan]

As I say, don't patronise me.
I fully understand that a hypocrite can be in the right, I'm a parent.

Fair play, that is genuinely very good

I didn't call you a hypocrite, it was more the politicians on both sides, including all the Kippers who are trousering the EU Danegeld, and rarely turning up to vote.
When our system as been fully reformed, and every vote counts, then I will be willing to respect the arguements about Brussels being an unelected autocracy put forward by both sides of the arguement
I'm not holding my breath, though

There is not much benefit to be had in reforming our system while it is superseded by Brussels.

You said you care passionately about democracy, and you also said you fully understand that the EU Parliament of elected representitives of member states does not and cannot propose legislation, and can be overrulled by the appointed commissioners who are accountable to nobody. If you do care passionately about democracy, which I don't doubt for a second, don't you think it's important that we operate in a system of democratic accountability? How do you reconcile your care for democracy with the way the EU works? I know you feel our UK system needs strengthening, but we can do that because we control our system, but doesn't the same apply to the EU? & given that we cannot control the EU democratically, isn't the thing to do if you care about democracy to leave?

I'm sorry if you feel I am being patronising, it's not my intention.

 

[bha100]

In regards to the vat on domestic fuel bills, the blame lies here, and why it would not be reversed even if we vote out.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...-when-he-argues-brexit-would-cut-fuel-prices/

 

[lawros left foot]

I don't for one minute think that the Eu is a perfect ,or even very good system of Governance. However, I really don't believe that we should throw out the baby with the bath water. It seems that every country has their Outers, some more vociferous than others, and every country has hangers on stealing a living from Brussels, who will be fighting tooth and nail to stay on the gravy train. Although I am an enthusiastic democrat, I believe that to change the EU we have to stay in, if we leave we have no say, and, under the Norwegian or Swiss model, which must be our least worse out option, we will still have to comply with EU rules, and still pay for the privilege.

 

[dingodan]

I don't for one minute think that the Eu is a perfect ,or even very good system of Governance. However, I really don't believe that we should throw out the baby with the bath water. It seems that every country has their Outers, some more vociferous than others, and every country has hangers on stealing a living from Brussels, who will be fighting tooth and nail to stay on the gravy train. Although I am an enthusiastic democrat, I believe that to change the EU we have to stay in, if we leave we have no say, and, under the Norwegian or Swiss model, which must be our least worse out option, we will still have to comply with EU rules, and still pay for the privilege.

We have no say in Japan's rules either, and if we are ever allowed to form our own trade deals, we will have to comply with Japan's rules too. Any country which trades has to comply with the rules of the country to which they are exporting. But because trade benefits both parties, both parties work together to ensure that rules do not become a barrier to trade. The same with tariffs. If the EU has high tariffs, we won't trade with them, and that hurts them more than us, since we export more to the EU than we import from it. & We don't even do that much trade with the EU when compared to other trade arrangements around the world. Trade is one of those things which is always pragmatic because it occurs where it benefits both parites, or it doesn't occur at all.

Switzerland is one of the most successful trading nations in the world, I think we could be too. Instead we are locked into a pretty unsuccessful trading region with almost the lowest economic growth in the world, and some of the highest unemployment in the world.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I don't for one minute think that the Eu is a perfect ,or even very good system of Governance. However, I really don't believe that we should throw out the baby with the bath water. It seems that every country has their Outers, some more vociferous than others, and every country has hangers on stealing a living from Brussels, who will be fighting tooth and nail to stay on the gravy train. Although I am an enthusiastic democrat, I believe that to change the EU we have to stay in, if we leave we have no say, and, under the Norwegian or Swiss model, which must be our least worse out option, we will still have to comply with EU rules, and still pay for the privilege.

I once thought we could reform the EU from the inside but after decades of seeing the reality of the EU heading in only one direction my credulity overwhelmed the wishful thinking. Every treaty signed reinforces Ever closer Union removing more and more powers from the UK. The drive to integrate at all costs (Eurozone) has led to extreme poverty and unemployment for millions of Europeans and economic uncertainty. Our biggest achievements seem to be how many opt outs we can secure or rebates we get. At some point we have to decide if the majority of European countries want to go in a different direction how sensible it is to stay in an organisation where they hold an inbuilt majority.

I am surprised anyone really believes we can get significant reform after Cameron's last negotiations. The threat of Brexit and all the supposed economic and political disaster we are now told would follow and all he could get was very minor changes. Not the substantial changes promised. Does anyone really believe once we vote in and the EU knowing we are in for the foreseeable future they will suddenly be more likely to adopt a reform agenda?

 

[lawros left foot]

Trade is a very difficult argument to have,at the moment, because nobody knows how it will pan out, I accept we maybe better off, but there again, it could always go tits up, it really is an unknown quantity whatever the politicians say.



One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation, is the fact that more Parliamentary MPs support staying in than leaving, and if, as some say the EU sidelines our Parliament, why is there such a majority in favour of staying in. I would have thought that any curtailment of their powers would be kicked out straight away, but most want to stay in and they can't all be hoping for a Commissioners job, ala Kinnock and Lawson?

 

[dingodan]

Trade is a very difficult argument to have,at the moment, because nobody knows how it will pan out, I accept we maybe better off, but there again, it could always go tits up, it really is an unknown quantity whatever the politicians say.



One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation, is the fact that more Parliamentary MPs support staying in than leaving, and if, as some say the EU sidelines our Parliament, why is there such a majority in favour of staying in. I would have thought that any curtailment of their powers would be kicked out straight away, but most want to stay in and they can't all be hoping for a Commissioners job, ala Kinnock and Lawson?

There are probably a number of parts to this. Sadly a lot of them are deciding which side to be on based on, a) who is on that side, b) which way they think the wind is blowing, and c) the false idea that if you want to leave you hate immigrants and are politically conservative. Some of it is also exactly what you say, that some of these people recognize that in future they will need somewhere to work after UK politics and to campaign to leave would burn a bridge they might be able to use to their benefit. Working for the EU is very very lucrative. 10,000 EU employees earn more than David Cameron, and they don't have to worry about being voted out. Brussels is a pretty nice place to work, lots of perks and you are well looked after. For some I think it's a "can't beat them so join them" kind of attitude. Politicians today aren't so principled when it comes down to it, sadly.

I agree we can't know the future when it comes to trade, but we can make some education predictions, and on the leave side they are honest about that fact. Remain would have you believe that they know the future. But educated predictions are reasonable, and educated predictions should tell us, like I said before, trade is formed of pragmatism and mutual benefit. While it is in two parties interest, they will trade. We traded before the EU, most other countries have continued trading since the EU while remaining outside of it, so there really is no reason to believe that trade will be a problem if we leave. But it is an effective argument if you want to play on peoples fears.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Of course you don't get them from the media! You should go to primary sources.

The Government ... the EU?

 

[lawros left foot]

The Government ... the EU?

UKIP,Boris Johnson?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I think it is similar on this board actually, the Remain supporters (SOME) use insults if they do not agree with a Leave post.

Some do indeed but they are vastly outdone on the name-calling front by Brexit supporters. There are pages of posts on the main referendum thread with attempts at explanation from Remain supporters greatly outnumbered by screaming epithets from Leavers shouting Traitors, Cowards, ******* ***** and every other playground jibe they can think of.

 

[Collingburnian]

Cameron used to be all in favour of us leaving the EU. Having now announced that he will not serve another term as Prime Minister (assuming the Conservatives are elected) he needs to find employment. Never having done a real job in his life, his options are limited. Eureka, push hard to keep us in the EU and he can get a lovely highly paid sinecure in Brussels. Hence the volte face. Typical politician.

 

[heathgate]

I think you need to read said posts or threads again,.... by some margin, the bulk of the insults come from Remainers,.... mostly focussed on racists, bigots, nationalists, little englanders, isolationists etc etc........

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Cameron used to be all in favour of us leaving the EU. Having now announced that he will not serve another term as Prime Minister (assuming the Conservatives are elected) he needs to find employment. Never having done a real job in his life, his options are limited. Eureka, push hard to keep us in the EU and he can get a lovely highly paid sinecure in Brussels. Hence the volte face. Typical politician.

Whereas Boris has always been staunchly anti-EU, right?

Self-serving chancers, on both sides of the debate.