ITV Referendum debate

[dingodan]

As I said it is a misleading figure, and is as such dishonest.

A silly and unecessary dishonesty.

Ok, if I ask someone what they are paid, and they say 30K PA. Can I accuse them of dishonesty because the figure after tax and deductions is less? That's what you are doing. To accuse people of dishonesty is pretty harsh, and like in the example I just gave, it's not warrented. There are perfectly good reasons to consider the figure to be 350 not 250, I think you just want to accuse of dishonesty because if someone is dishonest then their character is in question. & if you can question someones character then you don't have to deal with their arguments.

 

[dingodan]

I am thinking in the terms that Gove and Borris are suggesting, that by leaving the EU we will spend an extra £350 million pounds a week on the NHS.

That will never happen, even if its is technically possible (as would spending it on 14 million 10'' dildos a week). To suggest it will happen is a mistruth, to suggest it could happen is a misconception.

Thats why we see people previously campaigning for Brexit now refusing to do so; it is misleading and dishonest.

No, I think you have erected a strawman. There is a difference between saying that we can save 350M per week, and that will free up resources for our priorities like the NHS, and saying that we can save 350M which we will spend entirely on the NHS. Gove and Borris couldn't promise to spend anything on the NHS, it's not in their remit. They are saying that you (we) will have the money available to spend on things we want to. Probably, for a lot of people, the first suggestion would be the NHS (which needs more money). You know the difference between what was suggested and what you are saying was suggested, and you know it. I think you are being a little misleading and dishonest yourself.

 

[dingodan]

To be honest. If you take 250 (not 350) then spend another 100 on me on top, I'd say that quoting 350 in the first place showed a flagrant disregard for the truth

"spend another 100 on me on top" - What do you mean? The EU takes 250M cash, and requires that we spend another 100M on what they tell us too. They control 350M of UK taxpayer money.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Ok, if I ask someone what they are paid, and they say 30K PA. Can I accuse them of dishonesty because the figure after tax and deductions is less? That's what you are doing. To accuse people of dishonesty is pretty harsh, and like in the example I just gave, it's not warrented. There are perfectly good reasons to consider the figure to be 350 not 250, I think you just want to accuse of dishonesty because if someone is dishonest then their character is in question. & if you can question someones character then you don't have to deal with their arguments.

I strongly disagree. Saying that our EU membership costs us 350M a week is misleading and dishonest.

It's so uneccessary as well. The correct figure after our discount ( rebate ) would have had the same impact. A silly misjudgement, £350 million has no more impact than £250? million, but calls into question their integrity.

 

[severnside gull]

You don't see a need or a want to lower VAT on fuel, fair enough (although fuel poverty in the UK is a real issue).

One day in the future, if circumstances change, you might want to lower VAT on fuel. Should you (we) have that right, if circumstances demand it and it's what the population want? Shouldn't we be in charge of our own affairs?

It's not about funding the NHS for me personally, it's about it being spent on whatever the public want it to be, they can elect whichever government they choose, I just believe that they should be able to elect a government which makes these decisions, rather than having to elect a government which will have to shrug it's shoulders and say sorry we don't have control over your tax money.

If I were to believe for a minute that a UK government in isolation would reduce VAT on fuel then why wouldn't they have already reduced the other taxes that they independently impose and thereby cut costs to the consumer? Despite having that power they haven't and they won't. They are dealing in semantics not truth.

Your wider argument is one I have some empathy with - sovereignty which has lead to so many wars on our doorstep versus the prospect of a unified and peaceful Europe is what the Treaty of Rome should have been about and clearly isn't. Do you best challenge and hope to change that from the inside or the outside SHOULD have been the debate. Instead we have lies and scaremongering from both sides reduced to the lowest common denominator (and they don't come much lower than an unholy alliance of people wanting power opposing people wanting to keep hold of power)

 

[Bold Seagull]

You don't see a need or a want to lower VAT on fuel, fair enough (although fuel poverty in the UK is a real issue).

Fuel poverty can be tackled by ensuring you give more back from other areas. A tax credit for example would ensure those that are in fuel poverty get the money, not just everyone who purchases fuel. VAT could be reduced on home improvements and extensions without restrictions from the EU. We have a ridiculous housing market, and yet if you want to stay and improve your existing home, you pay 20% on any works you do. We have thousands of derelict or properties requiring refurbishment across the country, but these are still subject to 20% and so remain in poor condition. I know developers who will knock a perfectly good structure down because a new build is 0% VAT as opposed to refurb at 20%. We are free to change all these VAT and tax credit rules if we like.

If fuel poverty is a real issue in the UK, tackle those in that poverty, not just a blanket reduction that will only lead to higher emissions - something we are committed to reducing whether we are in or out of the EU.

Besides, the very notion that the government would reduce VAT after a Brexit is laughable. It is the first thing they put up without any interference from the EU!

 

[DJ NOBO]

To stay in the EU is like staying in a relationship for years on end, knowing it's sh*t, knowing it won't get any better but not having the balls to try something different.
I know people like that and I know I'm not like that.
So I'm voting leave.

 

[Bold Seagull]

If I were to believe for a minute that a UK government in isolation would reduce VAT on fuel then why wouldn't they have already have reduced the other taxes that they independently impose and thereby cut costs to the consumer? Despite having that power they haven't and they won't. They are dealing in semantics not truth.

Exactly, VAT is the first tax they raised.

 

[pb21]

You know the difference between what was suggested and what you are saying was suggested, and you know it.

Of course I know it, the people who refuse to now campaign for Brexit because of the suggestion know it too. But that isn't how it is being painted (and hence thought to be the case by many people who will be voting) by Gove and Johnson, hence the mistruth misconception, misleading and dishonest claims.

 

[Bold Seagull]

To stay in the EU is like staying in a relationship for years on end, knowing it's sh*t, knowing it won't get any better but not having the balls to try something different.
I know people like that and I know I'm not like that.
So I'm voting leave.

I think that's called marriage. Some people divorce, some people work at it, get over their differences, and live happy ever after having reconciled, compromised, and fallen in love all over again. True story.

 

[dingodan]

Besides, the very notion that the government would reduce VAT after a Brexit is laughable. It is the first thing they put up without any interference from the EU!

Which government? This current one? You seem to completely miss the point that it's about the people through their elected representitives making decisions, vs someone else making decisions for us on our behalf and there being nothing we can do about it. You made some interesting policy suggestions in your post, it almost sounds like you believe in having a say in what we can do about issues. Why are you so willing to give your say (and your childrens say) away?

You clearly don't trust this conservative government, I can't say I do either. But do you trust the Brussels elite? At least you have the reach to give this conservative government a bloody nose if you choose to, try having any affect on the EU when they make a decision for you that you don't agree with.

 

[dingodan]

I think that's called marriage. Some people divorce, some people work at it, get over their differences, and live happy ever after having reconciled, compromised, and fallen in love all over again. True story.

& some people are scared into staying in a relationship because they fear what will happen if they leave, and they fear they can't make it on their own. Their partner tells them how bad life will be for them if they leave, and list all the ways in which they could make life harder for them if they do.

I think it's called an abusive relationship.

 

[Bold Seagull]

& some people are scared into staying in a relationship because they fear what will happen if they leave, and they fear they can't make it on their own. Their partner tells them how bad life will be for them if they leave, and list all the ways in which they could make life harder for them if they do.

I think it's called an abusive relationship.

You see mine was light hearted, yours is just bitter. Try to keep some humour involved.

 

[lawros left foot]

Which government? This current one? You seem to completely miss the point that it's about the people through their elected representitives making decisions, vs someone else making decisions for us on our behalf and there being nothing we can do about it. You made some interesting policy suggestions in your post, it almost sounds like you believe in having a say in what we can do about issues. Why are you so willing to give your say (and your childrens say) away?

You clearly don't trust this conservative government, I can't say I do either. But do you trust the Brussels elite? At least you have the reach to give this conservative government a bloody nose if you choose to, try having any affect on the EU when they make a decision for you that you don't agree with.

Due to FPTP, my vote is no more valid in a UK general election, than it is in a European election.
If the Outers are so keen on democracy, why didn't they back the Liberals when they were trying to make our voting system fairer?
Hypocrites, one and all

 

[dingodan]

You see mine was light hearted, yours is just bitter. Try to keep some humour involved.

Sorry, but I think some people genuinely see it in the way that you described, and I think my analogy is more accurate.

 

[DJ NOBO]

I think that's called marriage. Some people divorce, some people work at it, get over their differences, and live happy ever after having reconciled, compromised, and fallen in love all over again. True story.

Glad to hear things have worked out for you, BS.

But where this differs is I think the EU will continue to take the p*ss out of this country. And if we remain, even more so.

 

[severnside gull]

"spend another 100 on me on top" - What do you mean? The EU takes 250M cash, and requires that we spend another 100M on what they tell us too. They control 350M of UK taxpayer money.

No.
Based on last year we were assessed to pay 350m but because Thatcher negotiated a substantial rebate still in force we only had to pay 250m. That is to say as clearly as possible "we never had to hand over 350m in the first place!
From the 250m we did pay we then got around 100m back in regional development funds and the like (helping to create jobs in areas of high unemployment for example) and things like widening participation in education. These are genuine benefits that the UK government would have had to pay and play an important role in underpinning our economy.
So netted down we paid 150m or thereabouts NOT 350m EVER.

Of course that is still a massive contribution but it's worth considering that if we had that 150m free where would it actually be spent? There are countless options and the NHS has been highlighted for publicity purposes. But really?
350m was highlighted for publicity but that was never true.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Which government? This current one? You seem to completely miss the point that it's about the people through their elected representitives making decisions, vs someone else making decisions for us on our behalf and there being nothing we can do about it. You made some interesting policy suggestions in your post, it almost sounds like you believe in having a say in what we can do about issues. Why are you so willing to give your say (and your childrens say) away?

You clearly don't trust this conservative government, I can't say I do either. But do you trust the Brussels elite? At least you have the reach to give this conservative government a bloody nose if you choose to, try having any affect on the EU when they make a decision for you that you don't agree with.

I believe in Europe, I can't help it. I feel European, I like being European. The EU is like supporting a crap football team, like having Sami Hyypia and David Burke running things, I didn't like it, but I still went every week. I didn't just give up my season ticket and go and support someone else. The EU is something that I'd like to see improve, evolve and be a force for good both for its members and the greater good. It's not cut and dry for me, I do understand and have concerns of the Brexits, I'm not actually fearful of leaving as such, but like I said, I do like the union we have with our neighbours, it might be naive but I'll be voting stay in hope that it does become something better with us at it's heart.

As a school governor we've had 'British Values' in the curriculum this last year and it's something we've worked on in school. That has manifested itself in a celebration of how outward looking Great Britain has always been. Explorers, inventors, we've spread our ingenuity, our willingness to share, to improve, to welcome and embrace. This to me is what Britishness is. Regardless of the wrongs of the EU as it currently stands, it goes against my own pride as a British citizen to suddenly look inward, rather than out. I want to be at the heart of Europe, not outside it, not isolated. We've always wanted to be in Europe, it is part of our history.

 

[dingodan]

Due to FPTP, my vote is no more valid in a UK general election, than it is in a European election.
If the Outers are so keen on democracy, why didn't they back the Liberals when they were trying to make our voting system fairer?
Hypocrites, one and all

So your argument is, who cares about democracy, since ours isn't very strong anyway?

I don't think people fully appreciate how the EU Parliament works. Did you know that the EU Parliament cannot propose any legislation? Did you know that all the EU Parliament does is vote on legislation which is given to it by the commission, and the commission then decides whether to accept the Parliaments vote, or reject it if they choose?

The EU Parliament has more in common the Sepp Blatter's FIFA than it does with a conventional democratic Parliament.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Glad to hear things have worked out for you, BS.

But where this differs is I think the EU will continue to take the p*ss out of this country. And if we remain, even more so.

Ha ha, I'm only 13 years in next month. Still the honeymoon period!