Has the High Court abolished school term time?

[Green Cross Code Man]

My ex-wife is a teacher ( and was when I was married to her ), my sister is a teacher, my cousin is a teacher and my sister-in-law is a teacher and I can assure you this statement is misleading. Around 14 weeks leave a year and at best I'd suggest they work 2 days out of every half term holiday and 4 days out of every end of term holiday. Add them up and it's just over 3 weeks - leaving at least 10 weeks. Compare that to the 4 weeks most people get and I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the 'teachers work in holidays' statement.

Thanks for giving teachers in the state sector an extra week and a bit off!

 

[GypsyKing]

Parents are responsible for their children, not education authorities. I think this ruling is excellent if parents are responsible. I dont think a 7 year old for instance missing a week of school is threatening to their university chances and if like many parents, with the sick profiteering of holiday firms in half terms, a family cannot afford the outrageous 3x prices in half terms, that family bonding time and even educational time if used to experience a different culture, and places of interest is not wasted.

As a responsible parent with a massive interest and involvement in my childs education and development i dont need a nanny state telling me what i can and cant do or a 'one size fits all' policy of trying to extract money out of me if i take a week of family bonding time thats not in a half term. I cant get any leave in half terms, its always denied due to nature of profession, should we never holiday as a family?

The problem with this argument is that it assumes the parents are indeed responsible for their children. Sadly these days being a parent does not necessarily equate with taking responsibility for their education. Too many parents want it both ways - to do what they want and then moan about the school for not managing to educate the child with zero parental support in the process.

I personally would not take my children out during school term as I think about the repercussions for the teacher if every parent were to randomly do the same. However a posters earlier suggestion of say one week a year, to be managed perhaps as per an office's holiday schedule to ensure there aren't too many absences at the same time, could work.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

The problem with this argument is that it assumes the parents are indeed responsible for their children. Sadly these days being a parent does not necessarily equate with taking responsibility for their education. Too many parents want it both ways - to do what they want and then moan about the school for not managing to educate the child with zero parental support in the process.

I personally would not take my children out during school term as I think about the repercussions for the teacher if every parent were to randomly do the same. However a posters earlier suggestion of say one week a year, to be managed perhaps as per an office's holiday schedule to ensure there aren't too many absences at the same time, could work.

They will create a play off system for football next then god forbid if a team finished 3rd.......

 

[BrickTamland]

The education system in this country is mostly a joke anyway - getting away and seeing other cultures is of much more benefit than learning about Pythagoras. If the school curriculum was improved and brought back into reality then I'd support the idea of fining those who have terrible attendance (illness permitting of course) but until then, let them go.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

My ex-wife is a teacher ( and was when I was married to her ), my sister is a teacher, my cousin is a teacher and my sister-in-law is a teacher and I can assure you this statement is misleading. Around 14 weeks leave a year and at best I'd suggest they work 2 days out of every half term holiday and 4 days out of every end of term holiday. Add them up and it's just over 3 weeks - leaving at least 10 weeks. Compare that to the 4 weeks most people get and I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the 'teachers work in holidays' statement.

Thanks for giving teachers in the state sector an extra week and a bit off!

The teachers you know are obviously not very good ones. In my first year of teaching, without exaggerating, I had one holiday (skiing) all year, during which I spent the afternoons doing an essay. Aside from that, I worked everyday from 7am-9pm in the week, and most weekends, Saturday and Sunday, from 9am to around 5/6pm (and by most weekends, I mean 3/4 minimum a month). I worked these hours throughout all of the school holidays except the skiing one, and this level of work continued through to the summer holidays, which were again taken up with essays and courses and planning. In total, I had about 2 weeks of actual holiday in the middle of the summer holidays, although this was not uninterrupted holiday, I just treated myself to the time on days when I felt I needed it.

My second year, as an NQT, was similar, albeit I became more efficient so I tended to finish at school around 6pm most nights after getting to school for 7-7.30am (there was still work to do at home). I worked similar hours throughout the half terms and end of term holidays, and I worked for 2 weeks of my summer holidays. That equates to 4 weeks off, at the busiest and most expensive time of year to go (and we don't get paid much when teaching by the way).

My third year was equally horrific as my second, and my fourth year, when I was commuting to London for a role, was even more horrific than my first. I was up at 5am and rarely back before 8 or 9pm, plus working on the train both ways.

I was a good or outstanding teacher for the majority of my time (I was seen by ofsted 6 times in 4 years and was never less than a good teacher).

Understandably I left the profession. I've worked in different industries before teaching and since I've left it, and teaching is without a doubt the hardest, most mentally and physically draining job I've ever done and it astounds me when ignorant idiots like yourself make baseless statements like that.

And the worst thing of all, I know a lot of teachers that worked harder than I did.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The teachers you know are obviously not very good ones. In my first year of teaching, without exaggerating, I had one holiday (skiing) all year, during which I spent the afternoons doing an essay. Aside from that, I worked everyday from 7am-9pm in the week, and most weekends, Saturday and Sunday, from 9am to around 5/6pm (and by most weekends, I mean 3/4 minimum a month). I worked these hours throughout all of the school holidays except the skiing one, and this level of work continued through to the summer holidays, which were again taken up with essays and courses and planning. In total, I had about 2 weeks of actual holiday in the middle of the summer holidays, although this was not uninterrupted holiday, I just treated myself to the time on days when I felt I needed it.

My second year, as an NQT, was similar, albeit I became more efficient so I tended to finish at school around 6pm most nights after getting to school for 7-7.30am (there was still work to do at home). I worked similar hours throughout the half terms and end of term holidays, and I worked for 2 weeks of my summer holidays. That equates to 4 weeks off, at the busiest and most expensive time of year to go (and we don't get paid much when teaching by the way).

My third year was equally horrific as my second, and my fourth year, when I was commuting to London for a role, was even more horrific than my first. I was up at 5am and rarely back before 8 or 9pm, plus working on the train both ways.

I was a good or outstanding teacher for the majority of my time (I was seen by ofsted 6 times in 4 years and was never less than a good teacher).

Understandably I left the profession. I've worked in different industries before teaching and since I've left it, and teaching is without a doubt the hardest, most mentally and physically draining job I've ever done and it astounds me when ignorant idiots like yourself make baseless statements like that.

And the worst thing of all, I know a lot of teachers that worked harder than I did.

Exactly!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The teachers you know are obviously not very good ones. In my first year of teaching, without exaggerating, I had one holiday (skiing) all year, during which I spent the afternoons doing an essay. Aside from that, I worked everyday from 7am-9pm in the week, and most weekends, Saturday and Sunday, from 9am to around 5/6pm (and by most weekends, I mean 3/4 minimum a month). I worked these hours throughout all of the school holidays except the skiing one, and this level of work continued through to the summer holidays, which were again taken up with essays and courses and planning. In total, I had about 2 weeks of actual holiday in the middle of the summer holidays, although this was not uninterrupted holiday, I just treated myself to the time on days when I felt I needed it.

My second year, as an NQT, was similar, albeit I became more efficient so I tended to finish at school around 6pm most nights after getting to school for 7-7.30am (there was still work to do at home). I worked similar hours throughout the half terms and end of term holidays, and I worked for 2 weeks of my summer holidays. That equates to 4 weeks off, at the busiest and most expensive time of year to go (and we don't get paid much when teaching by the way).

My third year was equally horrific as my second, and my fourth year, when I was commuting to London for a role, was even more horrific than my first. I was up at 5am and rarely back before 8 or 9pm, plus working on the train both ways.

I was a good or outstanding teacher for the majority of my time (I was seen by ofsted 6 times in 4 years and was never less than a good teacher).

Understandably I left the profession. I've worked in different industries before teaching and since I've left it, and teaching is without a doubt the hardest, most mentally and physically draining job I've ever done and it astounds me when ignorant idiots like yourself make baseless statements like that.

And the worst thing of all, I know a lot of teachers that worked harder than I did.

If the teachers I know are so rubbish why have three of them had promotions ? One being Head of Languages, one being Head of Maths and the other being a deputy Head in a 2000+ head school. I'd suggest that if your planning etc took you so many hours to do that it's you that might have been a 'not very good teacher'. Yes they work extended hours when it's exam time or report writing time but that is about it. You're seriously telling me you worked an 80+ hour week as a teacher .... utter bullshit. Even junior doctors don't work that ! Your post is typical of teachers boo hoo'ing that they are hard done by, poorly paid ( out of the three teachers I've mentioned their salaries are £37k, £33k and £59k - hardly poor ) and have to work so so many hours when most don't - only the inefficient ones do ! So I'm am 'ignorant idiot' no doubt because my experience of teachers - all within my family - don't match the down trodden, over worked, poorly paid, bullied and unappreciated bullshit image teachers want you to believe .... yes, OK. At least you now have a job in the real world !!!!

 

[Wilko]

If the teachers I know are so rubbish why have three of them had promotions ? One being Head of Languages, one being Head of Maths and the other being a deputy Head in a 2000+ head school. I'd suggest that if your planning etc took you so many hours to do that it's you that might have been a 'not very good teacher'. Yes they work extended hours when it's exam time or report writing time but that is about it. You're seriously telling me you worked an 80+ hour week as a teacher .... utter bullshit. Even junior doctors don't work that ! Your post is typical of teachers boo hoo'ing that they are hard done by, poorly paid ( out of the three teachers I've mentioned their salaries are £37k, £33k and £59k - hardly poor ) and have to work so so many hours when most don't - only the inefficient ones do ! So I'm am 'ignorant idiot' no doubt because my experience of teachers - all within my family - don't match the down trodden, over worked, poorly paid, bullied and unappreciated bullshit image teachers want you to believe .... yes, OK. At least you now have a job in the real world !!!!

Clueless. My friend was of the same opinion once about teaching so I offered him the chance to come and shadow me for one day. I think it is fair to say that he changed his mind by the end of it, off he went back to his office job of sitting on facebook, long lunchbreaks, looking out the window and chatting up women day in day out.

 

[Bold Seagull]

If the teachers I know are so rubbish why have three of them had promotions ? One being Head of Languages, one being Head of Maths and the other being a deputy Head in a 2000+ head school. I'd suggest that if your planning etc took you so many hours to do that it's you that might have been a 'not very good teacher'. Yes they work extended hours when it's exam time or report writing time but that is about it. You're seriously telling me you worked an 80+ hour week as a teacher .... utter bullshit. Even junior doctors don't work that ! Your post is typical of teachers boo hoo'ing that they are hard done by, poorly paid ( out of the three teachers I've mentioned their salaries are £37k, £33k and £59k - hardly poor ) and have to work so so many hours when most don't - only the inefficient ones do ! So I'm am 'ignorant idiot' no doubt because my experience of teachers - all within my family - don't match the down trodden, over worked, poorly paid, bullied and unappreciated bullshit image teachers want you to believe .... yes, OK. At least you now have a job in the real world !!!!

They must be delighted with how much respect you treat their profession with. Crikey.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

They must be delighted with how much respect you treat their profession with. Crikey.

I respect their profession - I just wish teachers would stop suggesting that they are the hardest workers in the world, being paid the worst money and are the most downtrodden - it is they that does their profession no favours.

 

[Maldini]

I had a teacher tenant live with me a while.She was in the second year of her career.She left home at 7.30am to take the 5 min walk to the school and came back at 7.30pm.From memory she also did school work at home.I don't think teaching is a great profession.

 

[Wilko]

I respect their profession - I just wish teachers would stop suggesting that they are the hardest workers in the world, being paid the worst money and are the most downtrodden - it is they that does their profession no favours.

My view is that only a few teachers do this. These arguments only tend to come out when other non-teachers criticise them for doing nothing and not doing a 'proper job in the real world'.

For example, again on this thread there is criticism for inset days, the suggestion being that teachers do nothing on these days and should do them in their holidays instead? Could I suggest to all non-teachers then that you do not have any meetings in normal work hours and only schedule them in during weekends or in your own holiday time too?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

My view is that only a few teachers do this. These arguments only tend to come out when other non-teachers criticise them for doing nothing and not doing a 'proper job in the real world'.

For example, again on this thread there is criticism for inset days, the suggestion being that teachers do nothing on these days and should do them in their holidays instead? Could I suggest to all non-teachers then that you do not have any meetings in normal work hours and only schedule them in during weekends or in your own holiday time too?

I my experience teachers go in late on inset days, leave early and get lunch provided - I hardly think 5 days out of 13 weeks will kill them. I'll happily attend meetings during my holidays if I get 13 weeks rather than my 20 days plus bank holidays ( many of which I still take calls on and respond to emails - see, we can all cry foul and claim to be over worked and abused ). Maybe talk to the engineers on my team who regularly put in 24 hour shifts and work the early hours of the morning - now find me a teacher that does that ?

 

[macky]

My view is that only a few teachers do this. These arguments only tend to come out when other non-teachers criticise them for doing nothing and not doing a 'proper job in the real world'.

For example, again on this thread there is criticism for inset days, the suggestion being that teachers do nothing on these days and should do them in their holidays instead? Could I suggest to all non-teachers then that you do not have any meetings in normal work hours and only schedule them in during weekends or in your own holiday time too?

If that's right and teachers work through most of the school holidays then surely there's enough time in the summer and half term schools holidays to have these inset days

 

[Wilko]

If that's right and teachers work through most of the school holidays then surely there's enough time in the summer and half term schools holidays to have these inset days

I ask again, why should teachers have meetings in their own holidays?. Do other professions have meetings in their holidays or during the working schedule, do any other professions see meetings as a 'day off doing nothing' or is it apparently only teachers who do that?

I would love to see the reactions of non-teachers if they were told all their meetings, planning sessions and briefings will now take place in YOUR holiday time.

What people confuse is contact and non-contact time. People assume that a teacher only works till 3.30 because that is when the children go home. If we took the same formula that would mean anyone who does a work from home day, goes out the office for a meeting, goes on a training day or goes to meet a client is NOT WORKING.

 

[scamander]

knowing teachers as I do one of the more stressful aspects is how parents interact with them. Unsure if there was ever a 'good old day' but I've had some awful accounts retold about how parents insult, demean or behave to them. As a kid I remember my parents trusting the word of the teacher and thus parents evening was encountered with trepidation, now I think it's the other way round.

A lot of my friends who teach genuinely care about how their kids do, so it hurts when they fail and they do let it hang over them. Some work silly hours, others work longer than you might think but perhaps their lesson planning is a bit more efficient! None fill the turn up at 8.50 and leave at 3.05 cliche.

Yeah they get paid well (sometimes) and they get time off over summer, but it's tough. Try delivering some training and/or teaching something, it takes a chunk out of you. I do some work with schools and have been in, come the end of the day I'm exhausted. It's not like some office work I've had where you can dial out for a bit and snatch a coffee.

Again - your line manager is there but also you have parents bringing you to account, which isn't a bad thing but it's not always a great thing either. If the parent is unreasonable or simply told one side of the story it can be really stressful. People will always dislike teachers because for many they are the first authority they come up against which is outside their family so there's a cat v mouse element to it. Just remember that the teacher at your kid's school isn't the one you fell out with, chances are they are really trying to help your kid achieve as much as they can. They are on the same side as you.

 

[beorhthelm]

I ask again, why should teachers have meetings in their own holidays?. Do other professions have meetings in their holidays or during the working schedule, do any other professions see meetings as a 'day off doing nothing' or is it apparently only teachers who do that?.

i think you are missing the part of the argument from teachers that they work during the academic holiday periods, therefore its not holiday really. so why cant they do inset training then? because you're right it is actually their holiday, of which they get 12-13 weeks.

 

[Wilko]

i think you are missing the part of the argument from teachers that they work during the academic holiday periods, therefore its not holiday really. so why cant they do inset training then? because you're right it is actually their holiday, of which they get 12-13 weeks.

They get 12 weeks NON-CONTACT TIME, the same way that many people have work from home days or training in other places other than the office. This does not mean it is time off to do whatever. Let's say that during a half term a teacher has reports to complete, 100 A-level essays to mark or schemes of work to write, why would they then be asked to come into school for a meetings? That would be like sending a sales rep off to meet a client and expect him to attend meetings in the office at the same time.

 

[Wilko]

I my experience teachers go in late on inset days, leave early and get lunch provided - I hardly think 5 days out of 13 weeks will kill them. I'll happily attend meetings during my holidays if I get 13 weeks rather than my 20 days plus bank holidays ( many of which I still take calls on and respond to emails - see, we can all cry foul and claim to be over worked and abused ). Maybe talk to the engineers on my team who regularly put in 24 hour shifts and work the early hours of the morning - now find me a teacher that does that ?

Become a teacher then if it a p1ss easy, stroll in the park occupation.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

They get 12 weeks NON-CONTACT TIME, the same way that many people have work from home days or training in other places other than the office. This does not mean it is time off to do whatever. Let's say that during a half term a teacher has reports to complete, 100 A-level essays to mark or schemes of work to write, why would they then be asked to come into school for a meetings? That would be like sending a sales rep off to meet a client and expect him to attend meetings in the office at the same time.

But you're implying that they use the whole of that 12 weeks non-contact time 'working' - that really isn't reality. Yes teachers work hard, yes teachers have a lot of government policies to adhere to BUT so do millions of other people in their jobs and you don't hear them whining constantly at how hard they have to work. Teachers have it no harder than a vast majority of the British work force. The teachers in my family that I've already mentioned really do not work constantly during their 'non-contact time' and generally do a couple of days at the beginning of a major school holiday to shut down anything outstanding from that term and then a couple of days ahead of the new term to prepare for the new term.

Really, teachers do not work harder than anyone else.