[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[pocketseagull]

I think if your view on this is that it's ok for Muslims to be oppressed because of their religion then you are no better than anyone you'd label as anti-semitic.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Might be the only way to survive. Certainly not the way to end the conflict. In which case we can see today's events as nothing more than the continuation of a neverending conflict which both sides habitually bring on themselves and there's certainly no good-side or bad-side apparent.

So I'm not sure why we bother worrying about it so much over here, just let them get in with it just like at let so many other struggles for land and control carry on all over the world with barely a flicker of attention.

There will be conflict until the people of the world think more of their fellow man than how to “correctly” worship an invisible sky fairy.

 

[Zeberdi]

It would help Israel politically if they reduced the annexation of land on the West Bank and indeed set up a prosperous Palestinian community to show what life could be but the attacks are just pushing that further away ( note this had happened previously but odd terrorist attacks persuaded a lot of Israelis this was not the right action).

Hmm - I can’t see Israel now unilaterally relinquishing any resettled land in the OPT - debatable chicken and egg situation- what is primarily pushing away the possibility of moving forward in any kind of peace process at the moment I think (not least the absence of a commitment to a two state solution in any recent accord) is the systematic dehoming of Palestinians living in occupied territories, the continual incursion of Jewish settlements/housing (and thus the de facto annexation of occupied territories) whilst simultaneously destroying the homes of Palestinians as a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian people for extremists attacks by Hamas in Israel and not least, the overall apartheid policies of Netanyahu’s government to both Palestines living in Jerusalem and those living in the occupied lands of Gaza.

All the above in addition to a periodic blockades of the sea, air and borders around Gaza has inflicted severe hardship and a humanitarian crisis on a people who have historically risked becoming further allied (at least politically) to a more extreme solution to their troubles. This in turn continues to pave the way for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to fill the political vacuum caused by the inadequacy of moderate form of representation (like the PA) to ‘free’ the Palestinian people from the Occupied Palestinian Territories…

Further to this unhelpful dynamic, Israel engaging in peace process agreements with Saudi Arabia ( along with ‘normalisation’ of relationships with Gulf States), America and Egypt in recent years to the exclusion of Palestine involvement and each to just to further their own interests in the region has done little to find a resolution for the Palestinians.

Palestinians don‘t want to live a ‘community set up by a regime that’s been nothing but oppressive towards them but want the right to autonomy and self- determination- that means a legitimate and independent State of Palestine.

I think the Israeli response is generally more ‘one hundred eyes-for-an-eye’.

It always is - but for both sides this the greatest escalation of the conflict that we’ve seen for decades

As it should be. Put yourself in their shoes. Surrounded by enemies. The only way to survive is to always bring revenge x 10 on them. If they didn’t they would be walked all over.

No one is ‘walking all over Israel’ - the main threat to Israel‘s security in the region is from non-state extremists groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad - from Syria’s use of proxies and asymmetric warfare - most of the moderate Arab States ( eg Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) traditionally viewed as ‘enemies‘ of Israel share the same security concerns with extremist groups and terrorism in the region.

As mentioned above, it is no longer meaningful to talk about an Arab—Israeli conflict being an existential threat to Israel. Iran-Russia are the key threats along with non-state aggression from extremists.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Hmm - I can’t see Israel now unilaterally relinquishing any resettled land in the OPT - debatable chicken and egg situation- what is primarily pushing away the possibility of moving forward in any kind of peace process at the moment I think (not least the absence of a commitment to a two state solution in any recent accord) is the systematic dehoming of Palestinians living in occupied territories, the continual incursion of Jewish settlements/housing (and thus the de facto annexation of occupied territories) whilst simultaneously destroying the homes of Palestinians as a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian people for extremists attacks by Hamas in Israel and not least, the overall apartheid policies of Netanyahu’s government to both Palestines living in Jerusalem and those living in the occupied lands of Gaza.

All the above in addition to a periodic blockades of the sea, air and borders around Gaza has inflicted severe hardship and a humanitarian crisis on a people who have historically risked becoming further allied (at least politically) to a more extreme solution to their troubles. This in turn continues to pave the way for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to fill the political vacuum caused by the inadequacy of moderate form of representation (like the PA) to ‘free’ the Palestinian people from the Occupied Palestinian Territories…

Further to this unhelpful dynamic, Israel engaging in peace process agreements with Saudi Arabia ( along with ‘normalisation’ of relationships with Gulf States), America and Egypt in recent years to the exclusion of Palestine involvement and each to just to further their own interests in the region has done little to find a resolution for the Palestinians.

Palestinians don‘t want to live a ‘community set up by a regime that’s been nothing but oppressive towards them but want the right to autonomy and self- determination- that means a legitimate and independent State of Palestine.

It always is - but for both sides this the greatest escalation of the conflict that we’ve seen for decades

No one is ‘walking all over Israel’ - the main threat to Israel‘s security in the region is from non-state extremists groups like Hebollah, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad - from Syria’s use of proxies and asymmetric warfare - most of the moderate Arab States ( eg Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) traditionally viewed as ‘enemies‘ of Israel share the same security concerns with extremist groups and terrorism in the region.

As mentioned above, it is no longer meaningful to talk about an Arab—Israeli conflict being an existential threat to Israel. Iran-Russia are the key threats along with non-state aggression from extremists.

But you can prove anything using knowledge and facts

 

[knekkebrød]

(1) According to the BBC, at the top of the high-rise was the radio tower of the Hamas, however there were likely many civilians killed in the bombing.
(2) Thousands of people have been killed throughout the conflict from both sides, 150 have been killed in Israel by the Palestinian strikes today according to their emergency services.
(3) They have support from the Arab League, Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, Syria, Iran and are governed by Fatah (in the West Bank) and Hamas (in the Gaza Strip) - there is an organisation in Palestine, alike Israel.
(4) I do not condemn violence, in fact most wish the world was at peace but know that this will not be achieved soon, there are two sides of this conflict that needs to be addressed and I am trying to provide another view to this comment using the sources I've found - although, I must state that, these could be biased.

1: in the images of the collapsed buildings you can clearly see a lot of black water tanks. What palestinians have on their rooftops to store their water in(if they have any).

But killing journalists would (if possible) be even worse. Even if you don't agree with them. Hamas run everything from kindergardens to soldiers. They built their popularity in palestine as a welfare provider in an area with the lack of a state able to provide basic care.

2: Yes, just tragedy. Most of them are palestinians though.

3: My bad. Meant to say that they don't have big/good enough support, training, weapons or organization to stand up against their oppressors(IDF/the state of Israel).

4: I disagree

 

[knekkebrød]

So?

He is wrong

 

[Live by the sea]

I think if your view on this is that it's ok for Muslims to be oppressed because of their religion then you are no better than anyone you'd label as anti-semitic.

I do not think that at all . However being oppressed for the sake of it is different to restrictions because you are looking to kill people . Completely different .

 

[Steve Foster]

 

[portlock seagull]

There will be conflict until the people of the world think more of their fellow man than how to “correctly” worship an invisible sky fairy.

About the tragic sum of it. Quite poetically put too GB, I commend you!

 

[Wardy's twin]

Hmm - I can’t see Israel now unilaterally relinquishing any resettled land in the OPT - debatable chicken and egg situation- what is primarily pushing away the possibility of moving forward in any kind of peace process at the moment I think (not least the absence of a commitment to a two state solution in any recent accord) is the systematic dehoming of Palestinians living in occupied territories, the continual incursion of Jewish settlements/housing (and thus the de facto annexation of occupied territories) whilst simultaneously destroying the homes of Palestinians as a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian people for extremists attacks by Hamas in Israel and not least, the overall apartheid policies of Netanyahu’s government to both Palestines living in Jerusalem and those living in the occupied lands of Gaza.

All the above in addition to a periodic blockades of the sea, air and borders around Gaza has inflicted severe hardship and a humanitarian crisis on a people who have historically risked becoming further allied (at least politically) to a more extreme solution to their troubles. This in turn continues to pave the way for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to fill the political vacuum caused by the inadequacy of moderate form of representation (like the PA) to ‘free’ the Palestinian people from the Occupied Palestinian Territories…

Further to this unhelpful dynamic, Israel engaging in peace process agreements with Saudi Arabia ( along with ‘normalisation’ of relationships with Gulf States), America and Egypt in recent years to the exclusion of Palestine involvement and each to just to further their own interests in the region has done little to find a resolution for the Palestinians.

Palestinians don‘t want to live a ‘community set up by a regime that’s been nothing but oppressive towards them but want the right to autonomy and self- determination- that means a legitimate and independent State of Palestine.

It always is - but for both sides this the greatest escalation of the conflict that we’ve seen for decades

No one is ‘walking all over Israel’ - the main threat to Israel‘s security in the region is from non-state extremists groups like Hebollah, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad - from Syria’s use of proxies and asymmetric warfare - most of the moderate Arab States ( eg Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) traditionally viewed as ‘enemies‘ of Israel share the same security concerns with extremist groups and terrorism in the region.

As mentioned above, it is no longer meaningful to talk about an Arab—Israeli conflict being an existential threat to Israel. Iran-Russia are the key threats along with non-state aggression from extremists.

Agreed Israel won't give up its land but it could stop the expansion of settlements which would remove one of the friction points and better still they could reduce the settlements that have expanded over the years. They won't because Netanyahu is reliant on the minority extreme Zionist parties who have the balance of power. Israel needs to learn that it needs to present a better image on the world stage to get the 'support' of the third world. Ironically many of the countries have WORSE regimes than Israel. From a Palestinian view I am not sure what the solution is but killing 150+ Israelis some of whom are defenceless women & children will do their cause any good.

Note Syria is actually a proxy of Iran now ....

 

[Live by the sea]

By committing large scale war crimes. Terrific.

I think I’ll decline to pick a side In this. Murderous scum on both sides.

You decline to pick a side . Big show of support for Israel today from the governments of UK, USA, European Union , Ukraine , Australia , India etc

That not good enough for you to decide who to support ?

 

[Wardy's twin]

There will be conflict until the people of the world think more of their fellow man than how to “correctly” worship an invisible sky fairy.

This has little do do with religion, its about making a grab for power over resources , no different to a left v right or nationalistic based fight.

 

[Krafty]

I do not think that at all . However being oppressed for the sake of it is different to restrictions because you are looking to kill people . Completely different .

If you are saying that it is more justifiable for Israel to impose restrictions on Palestine as they are "looking to kill people", then I highly recommend you look at what Israel has done to Palestine throughout history, the amount of deaths in the Arab country is unsettling.

 

[knekkebrød]

Terrible situation for her and her family.

Israel have arrested a lot of palestinian children to exchange her with. I have witnessed arrests of children as young as 13 first hand, back when I stayed there. Used to play football with the 13year old in the streets, and then one night IDF raided my neighborhood and arrested him.

You can read about theese arrests in the guardian:

‘A hidden universe of suffering’: the Palestinian children sent to jail

The long read: One night in 2005, Israeli soldiers came for Huda Dahbour’s teenage son. He was gone for a year and a half. The damage done to their family – and so many others like them – was incalculable

www.theguardian.com

 

[Live by the sea]

So?

He is wrong

Oh yes that must be the answer ……You know more than a president of a country who is also fighting a war against a west hating country and who has the whole support of Europe and the rest of the western world behind him . But you know different …………

 

[knekkebrød]

Oh yes that must be the answer ……You know more than a president of a country who is also fighting a war against a west hating country and who has the whole support of Europe and the rest of the western world behind him . But you know different …………

About Israel/palestine? Yes, I have lived there. He has not

 

[Guinness Boy]

This has little do do with religion, its about making a grab for power over resources , no different to a left v right or nationalistic based fight.

No, I strongly disagree.

These conflicts actually occur when artificial borders are drawn on landmasses. Northern Ireland, India / Pakistan, Israel. They are all drawn on religious lines. Take religion out and there’s no need for the division. Even in the Balkans a large part of initial conflict was Due to claim and counter claim of the Bosnian Muslims. Cyprus is another example.

 

[Zeberdi]

But you can prove anything using knowledge and facts

Honestly- I think all any of us can do with ‘knowledge’ and ‘facts‘ is to prove we can use them to construct arguments that support our particular version of the truth …

Unfortunately as this thread shows, there are endless variations and nuances of the ‘truth’ depending one’s racial, cultural, social, political and spiritual outlooks and that’s just within a largely white, westernised forum of football supporters - That Israel sees the OPT as a hotbed of Hamas terrorists that must be periodically ‘mowed down’ to protect herself and Palestinians living in the OPT see Israel as an occupying apartheid force that must be periodically subjected to rocket attacks in reprisal for crimes against humanity would demonstrate that point … both sides are right and both sides are wrong but neither completely one or the other.

 

[birthofanorange]

This could so easily turn into 'two suns in the sunset'.
We really are at the tipping point.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You decline to pick a side . Big show of support for Israel today from the governments of UK, USA, European Union , Ukraine , Australia , India etc

That not good enough for you to decide who to support ?

No, it’s not.

I completely and unreservedly condemn any indiscriminate attacks by Hamas today, along with the targeting and kidnap of innocent civilians.

Those actions are utterly deplorable irrespective of supposed justification or provocation.

That is very different from ‘supporting’ either side. The retaliation by Israel, which as ever seems to be in the form of indiscriminate ’punishment’ is every bit as deplorable.