[Politics] Johnson blames energy price rises on Putin

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Harry, he is correct. I’m sorry. What else do you think is driving gas, oil and power markets higher ? Putin has toyed with the markets for a couple of years, particularly with his cat and mouse games with the German Green Party over their continued refusal to allow the Nordstream 2 pipeline. We are now putting our money where our mouths are over support for Ukraine. That’s just a fact. Now there are very good arguments that someone else should pay eg the energy producers. I have a lot of sympathy for that argument but someone will pay for Putin’s actions to reduce both supply and security of supply. Putin pounced when he saw vulnerability. He saw us trying to reduce our reliance on fossil fuel via the energy transition. We were closing coal fired power stations, not renewing nuclear supply and therefore even more reliant on Russia. There was also surging demand post Covid and an infrastructure that was struggling to ramp up supply. This is generally accepted pretty much everywhere so to create a story out of what you say Johnson said is surprising.

I hadn't realized that we get 99% of our energy from Putin. Must have missed that.

Oh, hang on, yes, due to the global market that we all accept, as soon as Putin puts up his oil prices, every company has to put up energy prices, even if they are Saudis, generators of north sea gas, or owners of wind farms. That's how the global economy works.

Time we had a revolution then.

Expect that it is all convenient bollocks invented by the people who are making all the money.

I would like to take a look at Johnson's conflicts of interest on this one.

 

[BLOCK F]

Blimey, the Brighton Reds have emerged from under their beds today.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

only one person to blame, we are at the mercy of rampant captilalism and have no control since we do not own our utilities. France own theirs and they increased 4%. I give you....

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In large part I agree. France is an outlier though. They generate 70 % of their power from nuclear energy and are an important source for the rest of the continent including those countries who object to this technology whilst quietly importing from France and benefitting from French supply which if withdrawn would drive prices even higher.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes, because of supply chain problems as we emerged from Covid. Again, well understood by everyone and particularly by Putin. Macron is also correct. Perhaps I’m just banging myself against the brick wall of the latest internet conspiracy theory. Probably best not to get involved.

So the increasing inflation and reducing GDP were down to supply chain problems that emerged from Covid and not the conscious decision we made to increase inflation, reduce GDP and introduce supply chain problems just prior to Covid and this energy crisis. Probably best not to get involved though.

Shame as you talk a lot of sense on the energy crisis

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I hadn't realized that we get 99% of our energy from Putin. Must have missed that.

Oh, hang on, yes, due to the global market that we all accept, as soon as Putin puts up his oil prices, every company has to put up energy prices, even if they are Saudis, generators of north sea gas, or owners of wind farms. That's how the global economy works.

Time we had a revolution then.

Expect that it is all convenient bollocks invented by the people who are making all the money.

I would like to take a look at Johnson's conflicts of interest on this one.

No, we could nationalize the lot and sell energy at the cost of extraction. We would then need to invest in new infrastructure as do the private owners of these assets currently. These investment decisions would be made by politicians rather than economics/markets. Any shortfall in domestic supply would still need to be made up on global markets. It’s all possible but it is not consequence free. Is any political party proposing such a plan ? If so, I am happy to give it a go.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So the increasing inflation and reducing GDP were down to supply chain problems that emerged from Covid and not the conscious decision we made to increase inflation, reduce GDP and introduce supply chain problems just prior to Covid and this energy crisis. Probably best not to get involved though.

Shame as you talk a lot of sense on the energy crisis

Covid supply chain problems have affected the whole world. As has the enormous increase in demand for commodities from China in this period. We have been in massive competition with them for LNG and coal at a time when Europe had extremely low gas storage. It became impossible to fill that storage as we could not outbid until the price had risen enormously. That is clear.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Harry, he is correct. I’m sorry. What else do you think is driving gas, oil and power markets higher ? Putin has toyed with the markets for a couple of years, particularly with his cat and mouse games with the German Green Party over their continued refusal to allow the Nordstream 2 pipeline. We are now putting our money where our mouths are over support for Ukraine. That’s just a fact. Now there are very good arguments that someone else should pay eg the energy producers. I have a lot of sympathy for that argument but someone will pay for Putin’s actions to reduce both supply and security of supply. Putin pounced when he saw vulnerability. He saw us trying to reduce our reliance on fossil fuel via the energy transition. We were closing coal fired power stations, not renewing nuclear supply and therefore even more reliant on Russia. There was also surging demand post Covid and an infrastructure that was struggling to ramp up supply. This is generally accepted pretty much everywhere so to create a story out of what you say Johnson said is surprising.

Oh, and the other side of the coin, Johnson is conflating energy prices with the valiant war against Putin.

Except we are not at war.

The Ukraine standoff (because that is effectively what it is) is the most egregious example collective international delusion I can recall since we sat back and watched Hitler annex this and annex that in the 1930s.

Back then we stared like rabbits into the headlights. This time we are taking advantage of the opportunity to test our battlefield ballistics.

I mean, what will 'success' look like here in terms of redrawn national boundaries, once we have surrendered and the war is over? I mean 'won' the war. Won. Yes, won.

After that (back to your assessment of the situation) how do we get Putin to then lower our energy costs (since you consider he and his 'war' are the main reason our nation is being soaked)? Negotiate with Putin, that's how.

Good luck with that.

I have some hope that the next US president, the next but one British Prime Minister, and the next but one French President may have enough brain cells, honour and vision between them to come up with a strategy to preclude any further such shitehousery from this or the next Russian dictator (because that's all they will ever have at the top).

But what about now? Being fed lies by Johnson (where he is in this case conflating two events as if they are cause and effect, AND offering no solution other than sitting back while what he sees as the root cause of our fuel price hikes just rumbles on forever) is par for the course. But it is our duty, now, as citizens to reject these lies. Johnson is a liar, even if he takes elements of truth to weave his lies.

I'm shaking my head, sadly.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Covid supply chain problems have affected the whole world. As has the enormous increase in demand for commodities from China in this period. We have been in massive competition with them for LNG and coal at a time when Europe had extremely low gas storage. It became impossible to fill that storage as we could not outbid until the price had risen enormously. That is clear.

What is also clear is that a significant proportion of the inflation we are currently suffering, together with the drop in GDP is as a direct result of Brexit, as is the continuing shortage of HGV drivers effecting the supply chain and the ongoing logistical problems around exporting products. And if these supply chain problems are bad wait until we actually implement any import controls and custom checks (if, indeed, we ever do).

I know of a couple of kids who have had their driving tests cancelled at under a week's notice, after waiting 6 months, because instructors are being pulled off to try and increase the number of HGV tests, and no glass recycling has been collected around our area for over a month due to shortages of staff, whilst the care home which houses one of my elderly relatives is having to increase prices because they can't get care staff.

As I've stated before and agree completely with you, this energy crisis is hitting everybody. It's just that not everyone put themselves in such a dreadful economic position from which to try and address it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, we could nationalize the lot and sell energy at the cost of extraction. We would then need to invest in new infrastructure as do the private owners of these assets currently. These investment decisions would be made by politicians rather than economics/markets. Any shortfall in domestic supply would still need to be made up on global markets. It’s all possible but it is not consequence free. Is any political party proposing such a plan ? If so, I am happy to give it a go.

Good. We are on the same page. Unless you're being factious

The only person who seemed to be up for this was Corbyn, ironically.

This is where Starmer will be too cautious. But as you say, nationalize the lot and we would have only to answer to ourselves

Apologies for my feather spitting. Your original narrative is of course correct, but every element of the landscape was put inn place by the various national leadership's choice, and not due to a natural law. It's all 'computer says no' stuff. Semi-automatic price rises designed to maintain or increase profit (as we have seen). Nuffing to do wiv me, guv. Market forces, innitt.

It reminds me of when I was poor and in financial trouble. I would go accidentally overdrawn by a tenner. Bank would send me a letter to tell me and charge me £20 for their administrative costs to do so. And so on.

Anyway....I have said it before.....the people get the governments they deserve. If the people will not countenance nationalization there is no point Labour even considering it. And when a leader has done so so he is branded a fool, maverick and becomes unelectable. Oh well. I am beginning to think I was wrong about Corbyn. Perhaps even his apparent unavowed support for Islamic terrorism may have just been a trick of the light....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In large part I agree. France is an outlier though. They generate 70 % of their power from nuclear energy and are an important source for the rest of the continent including those countries who object to this technology whilst quietly importing from France and benefitting from French supply which if withdrawn would drive prices even higher.

Mea culpa. I was one of those people opposed to nuclear. If only (etc.).

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Oh, and the other side of the coin, Johnson is conflating energy prices with the valiant war against Putin.

Except we are not at war.

The Ukraine standoff (because that is effectively what it is) is the most egregious example collective international delusion I can recall since we sat back and watched Hitler annex this and annex that in the 1930s.

Back then we stared like rabbits into the headlights. This time we are taking advantage of the opportunity to test our battlefield ballistics.

I mean, what will 'success' look like here in terms of redrawn national boundaries, once we have surrendered and the war is over? I mean 'won' the war. Won. Yes, won.

After that (back to your assessment of the situation) how do we get Putin to then lower our energy costs (since you consider he and his 'war' are the main reason our nation is being soaked)? Negotiate with Putin, that's how.

Good luck with that.

I have some hope that the next US president, the next but one British Prime Minister, and the next but one French President may have enough brain cells, honour and vision between them to come up with a strategy to preclude any further such shitehousery from this or the next Russian dictator (because that's all they will ever have at the top).

But what about now? Being fed lies by Johnson (where he is in this case conflating two events as if they are cause and effect, AND offering no solution other than sitting back while what he sees as the root cause of our fuel price hikes just rumbles on forever) is par for the course. But it is our duty, now, as citizens to reject these lies. Johnson is a liar, even if he takes elements of truth to weave his lies.

I'm shaking my head, sadly.

Ukraine and high energy prices are completely interwoven. It’s pretty obvious if you trade these markets and President Zelensky has pointed it out plenty of times. Johnson is merely echoing his words.You are giving Johnson too much credit for his analysis. Fossil fuels are the source of Putin’s wealth and his lever over Europe to achieve his territorial ambitions. We are at war with Russia. It’s just that these things look different these days. In a couple of years we will have weaned ourselves off Russian supplies and they will have found new markets in Asia. The shadow war will move on and the energy transition will be more advanced. Renewable energy is cheaper than fossil fuels but we cannot have it overnight.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I’m with you but I’ll also hunker down on this now. The Tories and Johnson in particular can rightly be blamed for a lot of bad things that have happened since Covid, the price of energy is not one of them imo

This.

 

[The Clamp]

The Tory government and all its snivelling associates want putting up against a wall. They are burning this country to the ground.

 

[KZNSeagull]

In large part I agree. France is an outlier though. They generate 70 % of their power from nuclear energy and are an important source for the rest of the continent including those countries who object to this technology whilst quietly importing from France and benefitting from French supply which if withdrawn would drive prices even higher.

When their Nuclear generation is running at full capacity. At the moment, half of the Nuclear power plants are offline, hence they are also reliant on Gas. EDF wasn't fully nationalised recently to reap the rewards of their power generation, it was to stop it going bust. EDF are currently losing 1bn Euros a month.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ukraine and high energy prices are completely interwoven. It’s pretty obvious if you trade these markets and President Zelensky has pointed it out plenty of times. Johnson is merely echoing his words.You are giving Johnson too much credit for his analysis. Fossil fuels are the source of Putin’s wealth and his lever over Europe to achieve his territorial ambitions. We are at war with Russia. It’s just that these things look different these days. In a couple of years we will have weaned ourselves off Russian supplies and they will have found new markets in Asia. The shadow war will move on and the energy transition will be more advanced. Renewable energy is cheaper than fossil fuels but we cannot have it overnight.

All of this is true (albeit cause and effect here is exacerbated by the built-in generation of obscene profits by OUR energy 'suppliers').

My objection was to Johnson taking the link, presenting it as if it is an inviolate law of nature, and not only that, but a Just law of nature, that we must all accept.

Then nothing. No measures to ameliorate its affects on our population. Nothing.

And all this to the sound of gentle applause and the nodding-dog heads of those who won't personally be affected by all this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Tory government and all its snivelling associates want putting up against a wall. They are burning this country to the ground.

I would really like to know about the consultancies in, and shares held by MPs in energy companies.

 

[The Clamp]

I would really like to know about the consultancies in, and shares held by MPs in energy companies.

I think we can assume it’s heavy involvement. The energy companies as with Russia; The rest of the world responds by freezing Russian assets and protecting their citizens against energy and food poverty. The U.K. drags it’s feet and wonders how not to piss off their benefactors, while we suffer.

I’d happily see the lot of them ploughed into a pit. ****ers.

 

[Bozza]

All of this is true (albeit cause and effect here is exacerbated by the built-in generation of obscene profits by OUR energy 'suppliers').

There is very, very little profit in energy supply let alone "obscene" levels.

[MENTION=522]Kinky Gerbils[/MENTION] posted the graphic below yesterday. He was making another point, but it also illustrates that energy suppliers make very little out of what we are paying. They are just middle men - they buy energy on the market, add a small mark-up, and sell it on to us. If those numbers are in the right ball park, and they marry up with other things I've heard/read, it means that energy suppliers are making under 2% profit even at the current sky-high prices.

What I think you are doing, and a lot of people keep making the same mistake,, is confusing energy supply with energy production. It's the latter where huge money is being made because, in simple terms, the cost of production hasn't really changed whilst the price the resultant energy can be sold at has soared stratospherically.

 

[Eric the meek]

Independent experts on R4, LBC throughout and still now blame Putin for this. As vengeance for Europe siding with Ukraine, plus he misjudged in thinking that Germany/Italy would cave in due to their dependence.

Non-Tory C4 give this up to date explanation, with some nuance about Ofgem.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-why-are-energy-bills-going-up

Thanks for that link.

The reasons for the soaring price rises are clearly defined in it.

1. Up to 2021, a perfect storm of rising demand in thin supply volumes has led to prices being squeezed rapidly upwards.
2. Putin noticed the effect above and to help his war effort, weaponised Russia's gas supplies, making #1 even worse.
3. 29 UK energy retailers have gone bust, leading to their former customers' bills rising by an average of £30 a month.

 

[Bozza]

29 UK energy retailers have gone bust, leading to their former customers' bills rising by an average of £30 a month.

This is one aspect which I'm slightly surprised isn't discussed more.

As many of these companies were failing one by one, I noticed that I'd not heard of most of them.

It comes with the benefit of hindsight, but it seems pretty obvious there was insufficient regulation in place as almost any Tom, Dick or Harry could start up an energy supply business, immediately undercutting the legacy suppliers and hoovering up new customers quickly.

They were assisted by the likes of Martin Lewis/MSE and various price comparison sites who had a significant vested interest in getting people to move suppliers as they earned a sizeable affiliate kickback each time they introduced a new customer to an energy supplier.

So we had the situation where there seemed to relatively low barriers to entry, and stimulated demand encouraging new entrants to come to market.

It's now all collapsed, leaving everyone to pay the price.