[Albion] Will defence be the key next season?

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'd be interested in whether the same is true for other teams though, it's not that unusual for an otherwise good side to have a big loss once a season. Just need a few key injuries or something like that and to come up against the wrong side.

Admittedly losing by 7 is unusual, but I'd guess most teams in the league will have conceded 5 in a game at some point in the season.

I agree. I just feel this 7-0 was an outlier for more than just the result. If I was analysing our defense then I would not concentrate on this match as it was far from typical of how we set-up......I hope.

 

[Hotchilidog]

So far this season, our defensive partnerships have been:

Dunk & JP
JP & Igor
JP & Webster
Webster & Igor
Baleba & Dunk
JP & Cashin

So I suspect our biggest issue is consistently having a settled partnership, and that's not including the madness at full back

Without a relatively settled defence you will struggle to achieve too much success and it has really hampered us this season. This needs to change next season.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I agree. I just feel this 7-0 was an outlier for more than just the result. If I was analysing our defense then I would not concentrate on this match as it was far from typical of how we set-up......I hope.

No one’s concentrating on it apart from the people claiming it didn’t count

The point of the OP was that all of our rivals for position have better defensive records this season than the one before. We should do too but not by the same magnitude.

 

[Weststander]

I agree. I just feel this 7-0 was an outlier for more than just the result. If I was analysing our defense then I would not concentrate on this match as it was far from typical of how we set-up......I hope.

Chelsea A
Palace H
Brentford A
Villa H

All could score at will.

 

[Giraffe]

I'll be disappointed if we don't sign one good quality 24-28 year old centre half to play alongside Van Hecke.

Plus a full back on either side. The amount of changes we have had to make defensively is mad and have cost us a lot. it was also glaringly obvious at the start of the season that we could be exposed here. I wouldn't get rid of Dunk but I'd like to see him be a very good third centre half option.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Estupinan 2 seasons in a row gets little support. When he’s exposed positionally (a lot), it’s a free run in on goal as Bradley did several times first half. Our left side is poor.

Mitoma tracks back, but not all the time.

The full back and wide player (on both sides) need to operate as a unit. This season it has sometimes been very good, other times not so much.

 

[Weststander]

Mitoma tracks back, but not all the time.

The full back and wide player (on both sides) need to operate as a unit. This season it has sometimes been very good, other times not so much.

Imho it’s been our achilles heel for 2 full seasons. LB throughout, RB when Velts/Wieffer don’t play.

It’s noticeable from KO opposition coaches targeting the weak side on repeat, with success, often bugger all done about it.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Agree with your assessment of managerial styles, but also with @Guinness Boy on Forest this season and if I can mention it, Palace in the Cup Final. That's a distinctive style that they've improved on, and it does seem an increasingly effective counter to Pep possession ball.
I think with FH we will have to accept that we won't replicate the defensive solidity of a Nuno low block. We take more risks. This leads to thrilling games of football like last night. I strongly suspect that that's what Tony wants and wouldn't want to go to Nuno ball. Emery and Glasner for me are more adaptive.
I've said this countless times, but our defensive solidity will improve when we can play more consistent line-ups, especially GK + 2CBs, but also FBs and CMs. The front four can rotate more, and none of these should really expect to play more than an hour a game. We have been more defensively secure when we've had that consistency in selection this season.

Good post, and to a point, but if the system is engrained in the squad most players should be able slot in at this level.

The whole persistence of FBs pushed so high is at times suicidal, and frankly does my head in…. At some point there has to be greater flexibility from FH, that’s why I found the McGhee, Adams interview so positive…… @Kit Napper mentioned his desire to learn on another thread, hoping he does.

@Weststander has nailed it for me

 

[Weststander]

Good post, and to a point, but if the system is engrained in the squad most players should be able slot in at this level.

The whole persistence of FBs pushed so high is at times suicidal, and frankly does my head in…. At some point there has to be greater flexibility from FH, that’s why I found the McGhee, Adams interview so positive…… @Kit Napper mentioned his desire to learn on another thread, hoping he does.

@Weststander has nailed it for me

It’s horrible watching from the stands when you see a Moyes, Emery or Glasner target a woefully out of position Lamptey/Hinsh or Estupinan from the first minute, get joy, then nothing is done about it.

Coaches do make fine adjustments mid half. MOTD2 covered Doku getting success against TAA at the Emptihatd. Slot quickly moved a CM out in that vicinity, Mid first half, Doku’s game was completely nullified.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thanks. That’s what I was getting at. Do the stats show the tide turning on football styles or has this just been a poor division attacking wise?

I'm less good on the stats but courtesy of watching too much football develop impressions of teams, their styles, etc (and also get valuable input from the 18yo whose adept at Insta, etc for getting info on teams, players, formations). Certain commentators are extremely helpful at framing things. Jonathan Wilson especially, but Liew isn't bad either and the Football Weekly team are good in general. The likes of Neville, Carragher, McCoist, Sutton help too, and I think the lot that they have on MotD/2 have become far more insightful of late -- Russell Martin was really helpful the other night, and I like Murphy, Given, Williams, and some others too.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'll be disappointed if we don't sign one good quality 24-28 year old centre half to play alongside Van Hecke.

Plus a full back on either side. The amount of changes we have had to make defensively is mad and have cost us a lot. it was also glaringly obvious at the start of the season that we could be exposed here. I wouldn't get rid of Dunk but I'd like to see him be a very good third centre half option.

Rumour has it that you wish has already been granted. Boscagli SINGS. And you even get a defensive BOGOF: Cuiabano SINGS.

 

[Machiavelli]

Good post, and to a point, but if the system is engrained in the squad most players should be able slot in at this level.

The whole persistence of FBs pushed so high is at times suicidal, and frankly does my head in…. At some point there has to be greater flexibility from FH, that’s why I found the McGhee, Adams interview so positive…… @Kit Napper mentioned his desire to learn on another thread, hoping he does.

@Weststander has nailed it for me

I think he has been a little more adaptable than you credit. I really don't think that both FBs have pushed up high. Most of the time one will go and we'll almost move into a back three type with the other full back and a winger almost operating as wing backs.
I take the point from @Weststander that on the right we've looked far more solid when Veltman or Wieffer have played there, and that Pervis has been somewhat variable (I think you and I tend to agree on how well he plays in each game -- last night he wasn't as bad as many are suggesting) but that's how he plays. But on both FB sides much of it is also dependent on who is playing ahead -- Minteh, March, Kadioglu, Lamptey, Rutter and Mitoma all offer better support -- and also how disciplined the CMs are and the extent to which they can cover. This CM point is another ongoing bugbear of @Weststander

 

[drew]

And don't forget the suicidal high line against Cole Palmer at his peak for the season.

To be fair, we were undone by a wayward back pass from Webster, a dubious penalty and a free kick taken from 10 yrds further forward than it should have been.

 

[Weststander]

I think he has been a little more adaptable than you credit. I really don't think that both FBs have pushed up high. Most of the time one will go and we'll almost move into a back three type with the other full back and a winger almost operating as wing backs.
I take the point from @Weststander that on the right we've looked far more solid when Veltman or Wieffer have played there, and that Pervis has been somewhat variable (I think you and I tend to agree on how well he plays in each game -- last night he wasn't as bad as many are suggesting) but that's how he plays. But on both FB sides much of it is also dependent on who is playing ahead -- Minteh, March, Kadioglu, Lamptey, Rutter and Mitoma all offer better support -- and also how disciplined the CMs are and the extent to which they can cover. This CM point is another ongoing bugbear of @Weststander

Baleba & Wieffer solve it.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I think he has been a little more adaptable than you credit. I really don't think that both FBs have pushed up high. Most of the time one will go and we'll almost move into a back three type with the other full back and a winger almost operating as wing backs.
I take the point from @Weststander that on the right we've looked far more solid when Veltman or Wieffer have played there, and that Pervis has been somewhat variable (I think you and I tend to agree on how well he plays in each game -- last night he wasn't as bad as many are suggesting) but that's how he plays. But on both FB sides much of it is also dependent on who is playing ahead -- Minteh, March, Kadioglu, Lamptey, Rutter and Mitoma all offer better support -- and also how disciplined the CMs are and the extent to which they can cover. This CM point is another ongoing bugbear of @Weststander

Did you got to Chelsea and Brentford?
Opposite ends of the season.….. it felt like nothing had been learnt.

That said, I did think the whole Lamptey and Wieffer positioning did work well at Wolves, so maybe that was when it sunk in…..

The CMs is a good point, but generally I think they have covered relatively well when the CB has pushed up to press, whether that’s the right tactic again IMO, is debatable, because unless it is fluid, that is a big hole for an attacker to run into and a harder one to defend.

 

[Machiavelli]

Did you got to Chelsea and Brentford?
Opposite ends of the season.….. it felt like nothing had been learnt.

That said, I did think the whole Lamptey and Wieffer positioning did work well at Wolves, so maybe that was when it sunk in…..

The CMs is a good point, but generally I think they have covered relatively well when the CB has pushed up to press, whether that’s the right tactic again IMO, is debatable, because unless it is fluid, that is a big hole for an attacker to run into and a harder one to defend.

Went to both (could add Forest into that mix too). They were outliers for me.
RE Chelsea, many view that was the moment FH was forced to abandon the high line and he's adapted. I don't really buy that. FH talks of an 'active line' and that's how we've played most the time this season. We pressed high yesterday (Slot mentioned it) and the line was often high. It's pretty much been the same all season. The players will get better at it, but it becomes more difficult when there have been so many injuries -- re CBs, see post from @JBizzle.
RE Brentford, think it was more down to really poor performances and/or decisions rather than formation. For their first, Dunk had gone walkabout like he (+ JPVH) used to do under RDZ following Wissa. Left a massive space and JPVH and Pervis could have got closer but Mbuemo exploited it. Pervis was then culpable for their second and third goals too.
I'm not saying nothing has changed or everything has changed. There's a general pattern and within that there are tweaks to take account of the oppo and personnel. On the latter, things will improve when/if we can play with a more settled formation.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Went to both (could add Forest into that mix too). They were outliers for me.
RE Chelsea, many view that was the moment FH was forced to abandon the high line and he's adapted. I don't really buy that. FH talks of an 'active line' and that's how we've played most the time this season. We pressed high yesterday (Slot mentioned it) and the line was often high. It's pretty much been the same all season. The players will get better at it, but it becomes more difficult when there have been so many injuries -- re CBs, see post from @JBizzle.
RE Brentford, think it was more down to really poor performances and/or decisions rather than formation. For their first, Dunk had gone walkabout like he (+ JPVH) used to do under RDZ following Wissa. Left a massive space and JPVH and Pervis could have got closer but Mbuemo exploited it. Pervis was then culpable for their second and third goals too.
I'm not saying nothing has changed or everything has changed. There's a general pattern and within that there are tweaks to take account of the oppo and personnel. On the latter, things will improve when/if we can play with a more settled formation.

Have to disagree re the outliers, the number and type of goals we concede suggest the opposite.
Palace away another example, Forest (H) Villa. (Forest was a freak result - I went to that as well)
As per my earlier post if players get the structure, it’s easy to slot in, so injuries were not as big a factor as some suggest, and in the event they are considered an issue, then you have to adapt and work with what you have. To his credit FH has not complained.

 

[Super Sub]

Imho, it’s been the weak full back areas that have hurt our goals against column this season the most.
Pervis has a superb engine but is a poor defender and has lost his pace and RB has pretty much been a non starter all season, what with injuries and all of the different players we have tried to fill the gap.
A fit Ferdi for the season and a new FB acquisition over the summer and I believe we will really push on next season.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Baleba & Wieffer solve it.

This!

 

[Giraffe]

I'll be disappointed if we don't sign one good quality 24-28 year old centre half to play alongside Van Hecke.

Posted this before I knew about Boscagli.

Can we also have a 30 goal a season proven striker please (well it's worth a try).