Why do people doubt Gus?

[BLOCK F]

That is part of the pleasure. None of us know whether he can get us to succeed the way he wants to play. But we have done better both these seasons than the finances dictate - so let's just keep that going. We have to remember that was his first season in the Championship - and with mainly League One players. It was great wasn't it ?

A good result in our first season and we finished about where I thought we would.Next season I would reckon that most people's expectations will be higher if Poyet gets some money to spend.Certainly the Chairman's will be!

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

A good result in our first season and we finished about where I thought we would.Next season I would reckon that most people's expectations will be higher if Poyet gets some money to spend.Certainly the Chairman's will be!

That is as it should be. As long as people are realistic - there are plenty of big clubs in the division thinking the same - and not all of us will get in the top six. It is likely we will find it harder next season as we are no longer a surprise package. But it will be really enjoyable.

 

[El Presidente]

I am not convinced by Gus.Suspect temperament,inability to get the best out of the likes of CMS,weird selections and substitutions,doesn't appear to know his best team,constantly tinkering,apparently no plan B.
Yup,we won the division last season and have ended up in a creditable position this season so what am I moaning about?Well,I am not moaning,I just have concerns.
It may sound harsh,but IMHO there is something missing.I do hope he proves me wrong but I have nagging doubts and am not as confident about next season as perhaps some others are.

References about a 'Plan B' by fans are a vain attempt to appear knowledgeable about something in which they are usually out of their depth about.

I have no medical qualifications, so as a rule don't tell doctors how to do their job, although I have watched a few episodes of Casualty over the years, I don't have a degree in physics, so don't think I am the person to advise on the Higgs-Bosun particle or CERN reactor, although I do have Sky and can therefore watch the Sci-Fi Channel. However there are many on here who consider themselves to be football experts, despite having no football qualifications, but assume that a set of Panini stickers from Italia '90 and once having made the subs bench for a Sunday morning East Sussex division 7 match makes them secretly management material.

Let's take the issues one by one.

Suspect temperament? He is theatrical, does not impair his decision making IMO. He has played the game at top level and knows the difference a manager can make once play starts is in fact relatively little.

Inability to get the best out of CMS? We were mugged, simple, and we all fell for it on the basis of some very good league one performances. If we had spent £250k on Peterborough's leading scorer rather than ten times that amount his goal record this season would be more acceptable.

Weird selections? West Ham seemed strange, but he knows the players far better than we do.

Weird substitutions? Don't recall many TBH, he tends to go like for like most of the time, unless chasing a game.

Constantly tinkering? Most managers rotate their squads, some would also call it having a 'plan B', which contradicts your final point.

NSC is the equivalent of a taxi driver's convention, we all (me included) think we're a bit smarter than we actually are, but most of it is hotheaded bollocks masquerading as chin stroking thoughtful footballing insight.

 

[The Large One]

Hello again Large One.Chestnuts or not,I just have doubts about Gus being able to get the kind of players he wants for us to succeed playing the Gus way.
Hope he proves me wrong and first on my list of wants would be a high class goalkeeper.He has got to get success with the players we can afford and get the best out of them.........consistently!

I call them chestnuts again because I don't think they're the central points to where Gus hasn't got things quite right.

For a start, as you say, I think the goalkeeping issue is more pressing.

I would say he has a better chance than most given our position of getting in who he wants. Money - yep, that old chestnut - will almost certainly be the biggest stumbling block. But he does have what the Spanish quite amusingly call 'labia'. The Irish call it 'the gift of the gab'.

I don't think he has a suspect temperament; quite the opposite - I believe he has clarity of purpose. Sure, we want him to be nice, and tell everyone that it's OK, but he will speak (relatively diplomatically) as he finds. I can think of several more managers with greater moans and whines, with far less diplomacy about any given situation than him.

CMS - like the whole squad-building process - is work in progress. His transfer fee is a red herring to anyone wishing to judge him. If he'd cost £50,000, would people be on his back? No. The fee is what Peterborough wanted for him - not necessarily his worth. Was Glenn Murray four times the player of Nicky Forster? No-one - including CMS - can say that his season has been a glorified success. But it's not been an unmitigated disaster either. I'd still rather have him in our team playing for us than against us.

Weird selection and substitutions - always open to interpretation. When a substitution was made last season, people would scratch their heads and say 'don't get this one...' - then five minutes later, you'd realise what an impact that player has had. Not every substitution works first time, but not every one is that weird either.

He probably doesn't know his best team, because it isn't here yet. Hence he constantly tinkers. There is a lack of quality for what he wants to achieve. You ask 100 people on here as to the best starting XI is, and I doubt any one starting line-up will be chosen by more than 10 people. No evidence one way or another - but I'd suggest wait for a brutal cull next week, and see what he can get in using the high standing he has within the game.

As for no Plan B, that's the one I disagree with strongest. Remember the matches where he started with no wingers, we played shite - and he changed it around? Or the times when he'll have two wingers on; and one holding midfielder; or one wide player and two holding midfielders; He either constantly tinkers or he has no Plan B - but it can't be both.

2011/12 was a season for effectively a new club with little experience in this division, with a new-ish manager with little experience, utilising players with a modicum of Championship experience playing against teams with a multitude of Premiership experience - and going in there with a priority to compete. For all the negatives you point out, think of the positives in return - the stepping up of Greer, El-Abd and Bridcutt. The excitement of Buckley, Lua Lua and Vicente. The tenacity (in the face of some unnecessary adversity) of Barnes. The late flourish of Calderon. In the end, we flirted with the Play-offs, and achieved this fledgling club's target.

If we can do that in our first season, then with the joint ambition of Tony Bloom and Gus Poyet - neither of whom you'd associate with wishing to flirt with any dose of failure - then subsequent seasons are only ever going to be better.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but that's what I mean by these old chestnuts.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

El Pres - had we devoted the same time to medicine that we have all devoted to football - we probably would be able to make some sensible medical observations in some situations.

But are you saying that my time as a manager in junior football did not prepare me for passing comment about professionals at the top of the football tree ?

Actually - you are right.

 

[brightonrock]

In response to the OP, because people are stupid, and when stupid people form an opinion, they refuse to budge from it despite what's evidence to the contrary. They only see the incredibly short term, and not the long term. They say "oh we've hardly won any at the end of the season, if it hadn't been for the good start we'd be in trouble." Yeah, well as far as I remember, Poyet was in charge for the good start too, so is equally responsible for us winning those games as not winning more recently. That anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can genuinely be having a pop at Poyet for us finishing 10th in the first season in the division, beggars belief. And not even because it's Poyet; ANY manager who guides his team into the top half of the division he's being promoted into, has done a fantastic job, FULL STOP. It's not me kissing Poyet's arse, it's a fact of football, your first season after promotion is about survival or consolidation. We flirted with successive promotion and yes, tailed off, but Poyet's 'boring, negative football' as the idiots see it, has got us to the top half of the division. Imagine with a bit of strengthening in key areas, how the possession football we predominantly play in defensive areas will progress. With better players those triangles and ball retention periods will be higher and higher up the pitch. I for one am more than satisfied with this season, after the euphoria of last term I honestly expected a bit of a reality shock. But no, we cruised to upper mid-table, even playing poorly we still robbed some teams of three points. There is nothing to fear in this division and I have full faith that we'll crack on next term and make another push, only this time we'll have the experience and quality to perhaps hold out for the top six.

 

[BLOCK F]

References about a 'Plan B' by fans are a vain attempt to appear knowledgeable about something in which they are usually out of their depth about.

I have no medical qualifications, so as a rule don't tell doctors how to do their job, although I have watched a few episodes of Casualty over the years, I don't have a degree in physics, so don't think I am the person to advise on the Higgs-Bosun particle or CERN reactor, although I do have Sky and can therefore watch the Sci-Fi Channel. However there are many on here who consider themselves to be football experts, despite having no football qualifications, but assume that a set of Panini stickers from Italia '90 and once having made the subs bench for a Sunday morning East Sussex division 7 match makes them secretly management material.

Let's take the issues one by one.

Suspect temperament? He is theatrical, does not impair his decision making IMO. He has played the game at top level and knows the difference a manager can make once play starts is in fact relatively little.

Inability to get the best out of CMS? We were mugged, simple, and we all fell for it on the basis of some very good league one performances. If we had spent £250k on Peterborough's leading scorer rather than ten times that amount his goal record this season would be more acceptable.

Weird selections? West Ham seemed strange, but he knows the players far better than we do.

Weird substitutions? Don't recall many TBH, he tends to go like for like most of the time, unless chasing a game.

Constantly tinkering? Most managers rotate their squads, some would also call it having a 'plan B', which contradicts your final point.

NSC is the equivalent of a taxi driver's convention, we all (me included) think we're a bit smarter than we actually are, but most of it is hotheaded bollocks masquerading as chin stroking thoughtful footballing insight.

Pres,very few football experts on here but that shouldn't prohibit fans all over the country putting forward their tuppence worth on their own fans forums.Not quite the same as telling one's cardio -thoracic surgeon how to do his job,is it!
Nevertheless,we all support our team and have different takes on things.Would be boring if it was otherwise.I hope we do well next season,but I just have a few doubts that is all.

 

[Hillian1]

The mere fact that this debate is happening speaks volumes:

I for one am in the Gus has taken us to a new level in football playing style, a level I'd not seen before, but this is not going to get us out of this division.

He has been forthright with his views on playing style, to the point where if we don't like he'll f*** off and go and play golf. We should remember where we've been, well I don't rememebr Mr Poyet being amongst us for the marches and demos and I remember that.

by the way, Poyet will f*** off at the first hint of a top half Premiership job, he's already said as much.

Sorry TLO, I know this goes against what you think and believe but there it is.

ps. I think the pies are good but I've had better.

 

[Meade's Ball]

El Pres - had we devoted the same time to medicine that we have all devoted to football - we probably would be able to make some sensible medical observations in some situations.

But are you saying that my time as a manager in junior football did not prepare me for passing comment about professionals at the top of the football tree ?

Actually - you are right.

I made Suarez my captain in fantasy football this week, and yes, it is a doublegame week. Alright, i might be hoisted by my own petard by a racist sending off of his in the second game, but i still think my selection of him as captain was genius. I have 28 points from him alone thus far and with a midweek brace that could be a remarkable week. I plan for this all to be a league-winning turn. Jelavic as his sidekick? Terry at the back? Mata in midfield? Friedel in goal? Come on, man, i'm f***ing godly and you know it.

Oh, and i don't trust Gus and because of what i said above i think i deserve to express my opinion in a hope-crushing style to bring people down just a bit instead of gossiping about all that's gloriously become of us. It's been a terrible season and i haven't enjoyed a minute of it, or if i have i pretend to forget about it in order to continue to fit the character i unamusingly invented for the internet to gain respect from those that fail to suspect, and i'll be back next year to repeat the feat and etch onto my gravestone when i perish: It was all just rubbish, and look where it got me.

 

[bhawoddy]

Hello again Large One.Chestnuts or not,I just have doubts about Gus being able to get the kind of players he wants for us to succeed playing the Gus way.
Hope he proves me wrong and first on my list of wants would be a high class goalkeeper.He has got to get success with the players we can afford and get the best out of them.........consistently!

ERRR vicente!!! Getting Vicente, or having the contacts to get this guy are worth millions IMO. He is well respected throughout the game and will attract a host of players. They just need to be the right price/wages and were in like flynn.
There are hundreds of managers who couldnt get the players i think he is capable of bring to this club. Id never even heard of vicente until he came to us. Hate to admit that but i reckon there will be plenty of others who would say the same.

 

[BLOCK F]

I call them chestnuts again because I don't think they're the central points to where Gus hasn't got things quite right.

For a start, as you say, I think the goalkeeping issue is more pressing.

I would say he has a better chance than most given our position of getting in who he wants. Money - yep, that old chestnut - will almost certainly be the biggest stumbling block. But he does have what the Spanish quite amusingly call 'labia'. The Irish call it 'the gift of the gab'.

I don't think he has a suspect temperament; quite the opposite - I believe he has clarity of purpose. Sure, we want him to be nice, and tell everyone that it's OK, but he will speak (relatively diplomatically) as he finds. I can think of several more managers with greater moans and whines, with far less diplomacy about any given situation than him.

CMS - like the whole squad-building process - is work in progress. His transfer fee is a red herring to anyone wishing to judge him. If he'd cost £50,000, would people be on his back? No. The fee is what Peterborough wanted for him - not necessarily his worth. Was Glenn Murray four times the player of Nicky Forster? No-one - including CMS - can say that his season has been a glorified success. But it's not been an unmitigated disaster either. I'd still rather have him in our team playing for us than against us.

Weird selection and substitutions - always open to interpretation. When a substitution was made last season, people would scratch their heads and say 'don't get this one...' - then five minutes later, you'd realise what an impact that player has had. Not every substitution works first time, but not every one is that weird either.

He probably doesn't know his best team, because it isn't here yet. Hence he constantly tinkers. There is a lack of quality for what he wants to achieve. You ask 100 people on here as to the best starting XI is, and I doubt any one starting line-up will be chosen by more than 10 people. No evidence one way or another - but I'd suggest wait for a brutal cull next week, and see what he can get in using the high standing he has within the game.

As for no Plan B, that's the one I disagree with strongest. Remember the matches where he started with no wingers, we played shite - and he changed it around? Or the times when he'll have two wingers on; and one holding midfielder; or one wide player and two holding midfielders; He either constantly tinkers or he has no Plan B - but it can't be both.

2011/12 was a season for effectively a new club with little experience in this division, with a new-ish manager with little experience, utilising players with a modicum of Championship experience playing against teams with a multitude of Premiership experience - and going in there with a priority to compete. For all the negatives you point out, think of the positives in return - the stepping up of Greer, El-Abd and Bridcutt. The excitement of Buckley, Lua Lua and Vicente. The tenacity (in the face of some unnecessary adversity) of Barnes. The late flourish of Calderon. In the end, we flirted with the Play-offs, and achieved this fledgling club's target.

If we can do that in our first season, then with the joint ambition of Tony Bloom and Gus Poyet - neither of whom you'd associate with wishing to flirt with any dose of failure - then subsequent seasons are only ever going to be better.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but that's what I mean by these old chestnuts.

Large One,fair enough and I have acknowledged in my last couple of posts that our performance over this season has been as good as I thought it would be.However,rightly or wrongly I have ,let us say, reservations about next season.Expectations will be high and we all hope these will be met.
Onwards and upwards!

 

[sir albion]

ERRR vicente!!! Getting Vicente, or having the contacts to get this guy are worth millions IMO. He is well respected throughout the game and will attract a host of players. They just need to be the right price/wages and were in like flynn.
There are hundreds of managers who couldnt get the players i think he is capable of bring to this club. Id never even heard of vicente until he came to us. Hate to admit that but i reckon there will be plenty of others who would say the same.

Take away vicente's mental and injury problems before hand do you actually think he would be here,cause not as he was on 80,000 euro's a week or whatever it was,we have a wage structure and these types of players will never come to us in the championship.

Vicente is a one off and thankfully he finally got sorted,but he'll be off to pastures green where he deserves to be,he does not want to be playing along side tripe players like dicker and navarro etc.

 

[BLOCK F]

ERRR vicente!!! Getting Vicente, or having the contacts to get this guy are worth millions IMO. He is well respected throughout the game and will attract a host of players. They just need to be the right price/wages and were in like flynn.
There are hundreds of managers who couldnt get the players i think he is capable of bring to this club. Id never even heard of vicente until he came to us. Hate to admit that but i reckon there will be plenty of others who would say the same.

O.K.Vicente has played a few games for us,shown his class and given a lot of people a lot of pleasure,but we have no idea whether or not he will be here next season for the reasons we are all aware of.
Let us see who comes in during the summer and hope Poyet gets it right.

 

[NMH]

So you acknowledge that we have had good and bad patches this season?

Oh sorry, no you don't - you only want to focus on the bad...

It is a response to the thread question. It's not a condemnation, but I'd agree it's enough for anyone to have doubts.
Yes, making a top half finish in our first season was nice, impressive even. But some can see WHY we had some downfalls and wonder if or why Gus didn't see it.

Recent form a major disappointment

 

[bhawoddy]

O.K.Vicente has played a few games for us,shown his class and given a lot of people a lot of pleasure,but we have no idea whether or not he will be here next season for the reasons we are all aware of.
Let us see who comes in during the summer and hope Poyet gets it right.

My point isnt whether vicente remains with us next season or not, it merely points out the possiblities available to us via Gus Poyet. Theres more to Poyet than just his management skills.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Oh, and i don't trust Gus and because of what i said above i think i deserve to express my opinion in a hope-crushing style to bring people down just a bit instead of gossiping about all that's gloriously become of us. It's been a terrible season and i haven't enjoyed a minute of it, or if i have i pretend to forget about it in order to continue to fit the character i unamusingly invented for the internet to gain respect from those that fail to suspect, and i'll be back next year to repeat the feat and etch onto my gravestone when i perish: It was all just rubbish, and look where it got me.

Hard to know what people get out of it isn't it ?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My point isnt whether vicente remains with us next season or not, it merely points out the possiblities available to us via Gus Poyet. Theres more to Poyet than just his management skills.

There was a thread about Poyet's contacts which ended up with the OP being laughed at. For quite a few months last year, Poyet promised us the 'special one' and he succeeded. There have been players coming in like Calderon who were completely unknown to us that have proved to be great players in our League One title and for a RB has scored some sensational goals.
[MENTION=5729]sir albion[/MENTION] Just because a player makes the bench, it doesn't mean he isn't carrying a knock or an injury, it's in case Poyet needs him as he analyses the opposition very carefully to see what he can do to minimise their threat and provide attacks for our team. He's not going to announce all his injuries so that the opposition can outguess him. Greer said only this week that he has been playing with an injury for the last 3 games.

No manager is perfect but for me the good far outweighs the bad, but as suggested in a previous post I fall into the group 2 category. I trust Gus to do well with us, but I trust Bloom even more if and when Gus goes.