URGENT! Fullback tactics are not working!

[Zeberdi]

RDZ at fault. We aren't starting with the best team, we're finishing much stronger.

I disagree - His problem definitely but not his ’fault’ IMO - Roberto can only use what he has at his disposal - a squad missing some key players, especially FBs, while others are clearly fatigued - Their minutes have to be carefully managed over the course of fixtures before and after, not just for the match in hand. Personally I think RDZ has done a superb job the past 2-3 months - against teams like Arsenal, it doesn’t really matter who scores first as the game will remain open enough for us to create chances but today we couldn’t get the ball forward, largely in part to our lack of aggression in MF - apart from Igor who should have started (and Veltman/Jack for injury) the changes he made were all to the AMF/forward positions - I thought Ferguson was making little impact as was, Lallana and Adingra (arguably our strongest starters for the position they played) bringing on Buonanotte and Pedro and Welbeck was the right move - but I wouldn’t say, Hinshelwood, Buonanotte and Welbeck would be typically described by anyone as included in our ’best team’ and yet, yes, we did finish stronger.

I believe RDZ builds his bench choices into the overall strategy based on player fitness, the need to manage fatigue levels, and anticipated need to change tactics and make positional changes during the course of play - that doesn’t necessarily mean starting the ‘best 11 players’ in the squad every time.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I disagree - His problem definitely but not his ’fault’ IMO - Roberto can only use what he has at his disposal - a squad missing some key players, especially FBs, while others are clearly fatigued - Their minutes have to be carefully managed over the course of fixtures before and after, not just for the match in hand. Personally I think RDZ has done a superb job the past 2-3 months - against teams like Arsenal, it doesn’t really matter who scores first as the game will remain open enough for us to create chances but today we couldn’t get the ball forward, largely in part to our lack of aggression in MF - apart from Igor who should have started (and Veltman/Jack for injury) the changes he made were all to the AMF/forward positions - I thought Ferguson was making little impact as was, Lallana and Adingra (arguably our strongest starters for the position they played) bringing on Buonanotte and Pedro and Welbeck was the right move - but I wouldn’t say, Hinshelwood, Buonanotte and Welbeck would be typically described by anyone as included in our ’best team’ and yet, yes, we did finish stronger.

I believe RDZ builds his bench choices into the overall strategy based on player fitness, the need to manage fatigue levels, and anticipated need to change tactics and make positional changes during the course of play - that doesn’t necessarily mean starting the ‘best 11 players’ in the squad every time.

Maybe but in all honesty we could have been 3 down in 10 minutes all coming from one place. In reality that didn't come from any surprise, everyone around me was saying it prior to the game.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Absolutely- I don’t like to call out any one player for being shite but ….as I said, Igor should have started - we just don’t know what his fitness level is though and why he was on the bench - maybe there is an element of ‘just in case’ we can manage without them and so ’they can rest’ in the starting lineup decisions too?

(Again, though, Pervis being injured and us failing to get back up FBs or replace Colwill etc in the summer is not down to RDZ.)

RDZ does have a say though with recruitment.

The first goal today wasn't a result of our style of play and taking of risks, it was rank bad defending.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

For all the talk about Milner it was noticeable how well Veltman was doing before he went off. Martinelli was in his pocket but unfortunately came into the game when Hinsh came on. There is no disgrace in that as he is a top player after all but with no lamptey here's hoping that one isn't serious.

If there was ever a game where we missed Mac and Moises it was today. Rice ran the show. He was chasing shadows in the West Ham game last year.

 

[Zeberdi]

RDZ does have a say though with recruitment.

The first goal today wasn't a result of our style of play and taking of risks, it was rank bad defending.

‘Having a say’ is very different to having the power to make buying decisions- I think you are overestimating RDZs role here and he would be the first to say that is not in his remit - he has repeatedly said he needs players who are ‘available’ and that we needed replacements for Caceido etc. You also can’t blame RDZ for individual mistakes players make on the field - he doesn’t train players to make mistakes. That one of the goals today was down to a communication issue between Van Heck and Verbruggen iirc, yes it was ‘poor’ but we have made worse defending errors than that recently.

I just think it unfair and frankly an entitled POV, to suggest our loss today is the ‘fault’ of a manager who not only got us through to the last 16 in the Europas this week but has done so with one of the highest number of injuries in the Premier League and still has us in 9th position (where we finished last season without Europe fixtures and with Mackie/Caceido/Colwill etc) and nearly halfway through the season, only 3 points behind the richest Club in the EPL with a combination worth of every other EPL club combined..

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

‘Having a say’ is very different to having the power to make buying decisions- I think you are overestimating RDZs role here and he would be the first to say that is not in his remit - he has repeatedly said he needs players who are ‘available’ and that we needed replacements for Caceido etc. You also can’t blame RDZ for individual mistakes players make on the field - he doesn’t train players to make mistakes. That one of the goals today was down to a communication issue between Van Heck and Verbruggen iirc, yes it was ‘poor’ but we have made worse defending errors than that recently.

I just think it unfair and frankly an entitled POV, to suggest our loss today is the ‘fault’ of a manager who not only got us through to the last 16 in the Europas this week but has done so with one of the highest number of injuries in the Premier League and still has us in 9th position (where we finished last season without Europe fixtures and with Mackie/Caceido/Colwill etc) and nearly halfway through the season, only 3 points behind the richest Club in the EPL with a combination worth of every other EPL club combined..

Hardly entitled! Somebody who has followed this team home and away for 45 years, forgoing holidays etc paying out hard earned money I'm certainly not entitled. I can have a view though. Today we were beaten by a better team however I'd argue that in more than one game we have started with a weaker team than we finished with.

 

[Mellotron]

Why isn't Igor allowed to play more than 1 game in a row?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I can see why Milner was bought in to the squad.

But starting him at left back against Saka or any half decent PL winger is just asking way too much of him. It's really not good enough to say that the Mitoma or Adingra aren't helping out enough. There's only so much they can do when the winger can just dance around the full back with ease.

The first role of a full back is to not be beaten at will. If there genuinely aren't fit full backs we can play then it's better to play a midfielder who can, at least run and tackle and will at least offer some sort of competition. I don't know, you could play Baleba there, or Gilmour. Far from ideal, but at least they will offer some protection.

Milner and Lallana have a role to play, in seeing out a game for the last 5 or 10, as in the Marseille game, but neither are able to start at this level now

 

[Justice]

I can see why Milner was bought in to the squad.

But starting him at left back against Saka or any half decent PL winger is just asking way too much of him. It's really not good enough to say that the Mitoma or Adingra aren't helping out enough. There's only so much they can do when the winger can just dance around the full back with ease.

The first role of a full back is to not be beaten at will. If there genuinely aren't fit full backs we can play then it's better to play a midfielder who can, at least run and tackle and will at least offer some sort of competition. I don't know, you could play Baleba there, or Gilmour. Far from ideal, but at least they will offer some protection.

Milner and Lallana have a role to play, in seeing out a game for the last 5 or 10, as in the Marseille game, but neither are able to start at this level now

Regarding Milner he could still be doing the last five or ten minutes at Liverpool we must of promised him more minutes to get his signature. Personally didn’t like the signing at the time felt like a cheap option and it’s not worked out.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Regarding Milner he could still be doing the last five or ten minutes at Liverpool we must of promised him more minutes to get his signature. Personally didn’t like the signing at the time felt like a cheap option and it’s not worked out.

Places in PL side have to be earned with performances on the pitch and in training, they can't or should not happen because of some cosy agreement made in the summer. Milner has been around the block long enough to know if he wants to play he must perform.

I personally believe he came because he saw a route in to management in some kind of double act with Lallana when RDZ goes. Whether that's likely or not, who knows.

All I know is that every season the thing that gets us is squad depth. We're short of a left back and a right back. At the moment, we don't have the squad to compete on multiple fronts

 

[Justice]

Places in PL side have to be earned with performances on the pitch and in training, they can't or should not happen because of some cosy agreement made in the summer. Milner has been around the block long enough to know if he wants to play he must perform.

I personally believe he came because he saw a route in to management in some kind of double act with Lallana when RDZ goes. Whether that's likely or not, who knows.

All I know is that every season the thing that gets us is squad depth. We're short of a left back and a right back. At the moment, we don't have the squad to compete on multiple fronts

Pundits praise us as this fantastic well run clubs and in parts yes we are. A free transfer and a kid who has potential can not replace Mac and Moises a genuine top class midfield. Surprised they sold both in one window tbh without at least one signing out of the box type to replace one of them.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Agreed.

As I said above, Milner was out if his depth with Saka (and was always going to be) - Igor should have started IMO. Lallana, I think we are seeing this season has limited impact. Unfortunately (fortunately?) we have a lot of young players who are still developing and benefit from some older experience on the pitch (or simply can’t manage 90mins yet so don’t always start because RDZ doesn’t want to go into a match knowing he already is effectively down 1 or 2 substitution opportunities as these kids aren’t up to 90mins conditioning). Additionally both Adingra and Ferguson are dipping in form at the moment IMO too which isn’t helping.

Lallana and Milner’s main role in the Club will be furthering their coaching careers - Lallana obviously already on that path and Milner was looking for that opportunity when he signed - that we get minutes in exchange for opening up that pathway for him is neither here nor there but ‘bloats’ a depleted squad. Frankly Milner hasn’t impressed me at all since he has played at Brighton and Lallana hasn’t since coming back from injury.

Considering that our ‘fit’ squad consists largely of older men and kids, few of whom can cope with a fast moving PL game for 90mins (let alone managing two tough games with a 2 day recovery in between) without succumbing to fatigue or injury, the options this season have been very limited.

Lallana and Milner haven't impressed me either, but to defend them, I reckon even they are surprised they are starting PL matches.

I get the value of having senior leaders on the pitch, but Dunky, Gross, Veltman and probably others are absolutely carrying out that role and aren't weakening the team.

Lallana and Milner will surely have to leave or retire next season as time has caught up with them at this level, but at the moment it's hard to see where there's any sort of coaching vacancy, so I can see them both moving on.

As for this season, we surely need to act in January as though these two are last 5 - 10 minute players only and make sure we bulk out the squad with players who can be more competitive athletically

 

[keaton]

(Again, though, Pervis being injured and us failing to get back up FBs or replace Colwill etc in the summer is not down to RDZ.)

I was worried about LB back up but I'm not sure it's completely out fault. We clearly wanted Colwill to stay, Estupinian hardly missed a game last season and we had Match, Gross, Lamptey, Veltman, Milner to cover and probably Igor. The fact that they're all injured or having to cover other positions couldn't have been predicted. And then you've got the issue if how to you persuade a good enough LB to join us on back up wages when you know Estupinian would almost always be first choice

 

[trueblue]

Maybe or the fact he is no longer good enough. Today it was obvious after 5 minutes. He can't expect help every time, Mitoma has his job to do further up. Milner neither closed down or stopped any crosses. He spent most of the time in no man's land.

He wasn't getting help any of the time as far as I could see. Mitoma switches off and lets players run away from him far too easily when we're pinned back. I'm not massively keen on Milner either but in the absence of Estupinan and March, he's what we've got, so team-mates have to adapt.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

He wasn't getting help any of the time as far as I could see. Mitoma switches off and lets players run away from him far too easily when we're pinned back. I'm not massively keen on Milner either but in the absence of Estupinan and March, he's what we've got, so team-mates have to adapt.

The problem I see is Milner isn't defending well but also isn't helping Mitoma. When Igor came on yesterday immediately Mitoma had so much more of the ball. When we play Milner and Lallana along with the Time Lord we lose so much dynamism when moving forwards.

 

[Beanstalk]

Why isn't Igor allowed to play more than 1 game in a row?

I would imagine it is partly about squad planning and partly about tactical suitability. Igor is LCB cover for Dunk or to play LCB when Dunk moves across to RCB. I also think that playing Igor at LB is probably too defensive an option for RDZ as he is not the type of player who can play in that hybrid model of full back/defensive midfielder that RDZ is so keen on atm.

 

[Weststander]

I would imagine it is partly about squad planning and partly about tactical suitability. Igor is LCB cover for Dunk or to play LCB when Dunk moves across to RCB. I also think that playing Igor at LB is probably too defensive an option for RDZ as he is not the type of player who can play in that hybrid model of full back/defensive midfielder that RDZ is so keen on atm.

Too many acronyms for my tired mind

 

[Zeberdi]

I can see why Milner was bought in to the squad...
Milner and Lallana have a role to play, in seeing out a game for the last 5 or 10, as in the Marseille game, but neither are able to start at this level now

I thought Milner had an impressive start v Spurs, definitely his best game yet (and I find myself for some reason admitting that begrudgingly) - he is certainly more comfortable playing in a wide MF position than LB (Thank goodness the Perv is back eh?) - I think we underestimate sometimes how many players have been playing out of position this season to cover for injuries and while many are very versatile, there is always one position they play best in and which showcase their skills more than another. Not a bad shot on goal either. I may have bought Lallana on a bit earlier too ( around the 80‘ mark but not for Pedro for Gross who looked knackered).