United States of Europe....Is this what you want?

[EDS]

E.U is shit and was never the same after Rod Hull slid off his roof.
Thread over....I thank you.

Made me laugh loudly, thanks

 

[cunning fergus]

Maybe I haven't learnt what you wanted me to learn but thanks for the info. I will read the links when I have had a little more sleep.

I don't disagree with the deficiencies of the EU, I fully accept their are likely to be many (as there is with any and every poiltical system).

edit: (those links don't really seem to go anywhere, the first two go to the home page rather than a specific article)

The links were meant to go to the home pages, because both website home pages confirm they represent left of centre political credentials.

Both websites support articles from authors who are typically left of centre politically. In short I did not use UKIP.

I sent you an article from these sites to demonstrate to you that euro sceptics (like Farage) can share exactly the same concerns on EU democracy as EU enthusiasts. Obviously their respective solutions to such concerns would be different.

You will find the 2 articles in a post I sent you last night..............you may recall it was the post where your response to me was that you had learnt a lot.

Indeed.

 

[BadFish]

The links were meant to go to the home pages, because both website home pages confirm they represent left of centre political credentials.

Both websites support articles from authors who are typically left of centre politically. In short I did not use UKIP.

I sent you an article from these sites to demonstrate to you that euro sceptics (like Farage) can share exactly the same concerns on EU democracy as EU enthusiasts. Obviously their respective solutions to such concerns would be different.

You will find the 2 articles in a post I sent you last night..............you may recall it was the post where your response to me was that you had learnt a lot.

Indeed.

I have learned a lot and I thank you for the information. Now you are back to being a bit rude because you have failed to convince me of your argument. And you accused others of being dogmatic.

 

[cunning fergus]

I have learned a lot and I thank you for the information. Now you are back to being a bit rude because you have failed to convince me of your argument. And you accused others of being dogmatic.

It's not exclusively "my" argument............both europhiles and euro sceptics share the same concern on democracy in the EU.

If, as a euro sceptic, I was ideologically dogmatic I would not be able to reconcile my outlook with that of europhiles............but I can.

It's only those who in the face of such overwhelming evidence remain completely fixed in their outlook that are genuinely dogmatic.

 

[BadFish]

It's not exclusively "my" argument............both europhiles and euro sceptics share the same concern on democracy in the EU.

If, as a euro sceptic, I was ideologically dogmatic I would not be able to reconcile my outlook with that of europhiles............but I can.

It's only those who in the face of such overwhelming evidence remain completely fixed in their outlook that are genuinely dogmatic.

Well I can't argue with the last part.

I have already agreed that it could be more democratic. What I was struggling with was the idea that European representatives were not elected or that the European system was considerably worse than the UK system. It just doesn't look that way to me.

 

[brightn'ove]

the name definitely has a nice ring to it. Let's do it!

u-s-e! U-s-e! U-s-e!

 

[The Rivet]

u-s-e! U-s-e! U-s-e!

stick an AR in there and you get...........

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

stick an AR in there and you get...........

Or stick ARO in front...

 

[The Rivet]

Or stick ARO in front...

love that rapper.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

I think Italy, Spain and Portugal's current issues are more to do with their borrowing than competition with Germany's manufacturing. And the the EU is elected. Next.

Er...elected...by whom?...did you or I get a vote to join....NO!...If you and I do not like an an European eurocrat...can we vote them out...No!
How come they have never clarified their accounts and spending...the whole system is a Gravy Train...which the whole Kinnock family indulge in with many other European wasters...
We actually signed up to a European Free Trade Agreement ...which has now become a political danger game....Go get Nigel... Mays European vote will get you through against this corrupt load of Eurocrats...

 

[cunning fergus]

Well I can't argue with the last part.

I have already agreed that it could be more democratic. What I was struggling with was the idea that European representatives were not elected or that the European system was considerably worse than the UK system. It just doesn't look that way to me.

I can't think why it doesn't look that way to you?

The EU Commission has the legal power conferred to it following the Lisbon Treaty to impose law on member states and can do so by bypassing the EU Parliament and national Parliaments, two institutions which have democratic mandates from electorates.

The EU Commission is elected by an "electorate" made up of the 27 heads of state.

There is no comparison to the UK system, it is not even close..............even pro EU supporters recognise that Farage and UKIP can make traction on this score..............that is why they want change. There are not many voices saying it's OK............well maybe a few.

http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08...thing-the-eus-democratic-deficit-does-matter/

 

[BadFish]

I can't think why it doesn't look that way to you?

The EU Commission has the legal power conferred to it following the Lisbon Treaty to impose law on member states and can do so by bypassing the EU Parliament and national Parliaments, two institutions which have democratic mandates from electorates.

http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08...thing-the-eus-democratic-deficit-does-matter/

Go one then I am game....Where do you get this information because I can't seem to find anything that suggests this.

In fact this seems to suggest that the Lisbon Treaty gives more power to the European Parliament. Which is a good thing surely as the Parliament is elected by the people.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0042423726/Parliament-and-the-Lisbon-Treaty.html

Edit

It also says that - "The vast majority of European laws are adopted jointly by the European Parliament and the Council."

and it seems that the elected parliament has an overseeing role to play over all the different parts of the EU.

As a citizen you can also do the following to get the commission to make a proposal
start a citizens´ initiative - if you collect, within a year, a minimum of 1 million signatures from EU citizens in at least 7 member states, you can ask the European Commission to act in an area falling within its remit. More on the citizens' initiative
lobby your MEP, who can
initiate the process whereby the Parliament asks the Commission to propose legislation. This is possible only in cases where Parliament thinks EU legislation is needed to help implement the Treaties. If the Commission refuses to submit a proposal, it has to give an explanation.
request a Parliamentary committee draw up an own-initiative report that, once approved by the Parliament, though non-binding, can put pressure on the Commission to come up with new proposals.
ask the Commission a question, on the basis of which it might consider legislation. More on questions
launch a written declaration, which if signed by more than half of the MEPs is sent to the Commission with a request for action. More on written declarations
submit a petition to the European Parliament. More on petitions
Once the Commission starts preparing or revising legislation, it usually opens a public consultation, allowing interested parties and experts to give their views. More on public consultations

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0081f4b3c7/Law-making-procedures-in-detail.html

 

[cunning fergus]

Go one then I am game....Where do you get this information because I can't seem to find anything that suggests this.

In fact this seems to suggest that the Lisbon Treaty gives more power to the European Parliament. Which is a good thing surely as the Parliament is elected by the people.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0042423726/Parliament-and-the-Lisbon-Treaty.html

Edit

It also says that - "The vast majority of European laws are adopted jointly by the European Parliament and the Council."

and it seems that the elected parliament has an overseeing role to play over all the different parts of the EU.

As a citizen you can also do the following to get the commission to make a proposal
start a citizens´ initiative - if you collect, within a year, a minimum of 1 million signatures from EU citizens in at least 7 member states, you can ask the European Commission to act in an area falling within its remit. More on the citizens' initiative
lobby your MEP, who can
initiate the process whereby the Parliament asks the Commission to propose legislation. This is possible only in cases where Parliament thinks EU legislation is needed to help implement the Treaties. If the Commission refuses to submit a proposal, it has to give an explanation.
request a Parliamentary committee draw up an own-initiative report that, once approved by the Parliament, though non-binding, can put pressure on the Commission to come up with new proposals.
ask the Commission a question, on the basis of which it might consider legislation. More on questions
launch a written declaration, which if signed by more than half of the MEPs is sent to the Commission with a request for action. More on written declarations
submit a petition to the European Parliament. More on petitions
Once the Commission starts preparing or revising legislation, it usually opens a public consultation, allowing interested parties and experts to give their views. More on public consultations

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0081f4b3c7/Law-making-procedures-in-detail.html

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/introduction/what_regulation_en.htm

 

[BadFish]

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/introduction/what_regulation_en.htm

There must be a reason why EU regulations do not need to be passed by the parliament when other kinds of legislation.

So I assume that you believe that this statement is a lie?

Does the Treaty of Lisbon make the decision-making process more democratic?

Yes. The Treaty of Lisbon increases the number of policy areas where the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council comprised of national Ministers (the “co-decision” procedure).

The Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the democratic control of the European Union with a stronger role for both the European Parliament and national parliaments.

It establishes a clearer distribution of powers between the Union and the Member States, which will make it easier for the citizens to understand “who does what”.

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm#5[/QUOTE]

 

[cunning fergus]

There must be a reason why EU regulations do not need to be passed by the parliament when other kinds of legislation.

Why they have the power does not matter...............the FACT is that they have the power to impose laws on EU member states without any mandate from the electorate.

It's been a long long long road to get you to this point so I think we should stop here.

The reality is that concerns about this kind of very serious issue are not the preserve of swivel eyed lick spittles from UKIP, there are many other progressive liberals who have exactly the same concern.

If we could get beyond this intolerance on legitimate criticisms of the EU, the UK electorate will be better equipped should we ever have the opportunity for a referendum.

Chinchin........and out.

 

[BadFish]

Why they have the power does not matter...............the FACT is that they have the power to impose laws on EU member states without any mandate from the electorate.

I would say that is matters enormously, I would assume that there are only certain regulations that can be passed without going through the Parliament or that only in certain circumstances can things be passed without going through the parliament. From what I have read this evening it appears that the parliament has a huge overseeing role with the commission and the power to disband it necessary.

I would suggest that with the complex system in place (as far as I can see anyway) which seems to work on the basis of collaboration between its separate entities it would be unbelievable to have a rouge entity that can write and pass its own legislation in isolation from everything else in the system.

If this is actually the case then I would agree with you entirely. However I think we are missing something and I think that something is the answer to my question.

Under what circumstances is the EU commission allowed to write and pass it's own legislation without the knowledge of the rest of the organization?

this is not explained in the link you posted nor in any of the other stuff I have read tonight (I was watching Vikings for the last hour and am now off to bed.)