UKIP Surge Ahead!

[pastafarian]

I don't need to ask my parents -I was there!

It's difficult to know how to respond to "bollocks" in an intelligent way. Still that's the attraction of UKIP isn't it. Life is simple No need for intelligent debate just emotive "straight talking" "from the heart". God help us!

Putin respects power and influence not some small state off the coast of Europe

then you would know old timer what the selling point of the EU was to the British people in the 70`s referendum.It wasnt a political union was it?

I said bollocks because its far simpler than saying what a load of claptrap or why on earth do you believe giving up our national sovereignty is a good idea.

Ive listened for years to people saying we havnt given up any national sovereignty to Brussels,and people that think that are just racists or nationalistic idiots or worse...........and then you come along and say

The sovereignty you give up in being part of the EU is more than compensated by the pooled sovereignty you receive.

I think a simple comment of bollocks is apt and fair.

 

[sahel]

then you would know old timer what the selling point of the EU was to the British people in the 70`s referendum.It wasnt a political union was it?

I said bollocks because its far simpler than saying what a load of claptrap or why on earth do you believe giving up our national sovereignty is a good idea.

Ive listened for years to people saying we havnt given up any national sovereignty to Brussels,and people that think that are just racists or nationalistic idiots or worse...........and then you come along and say



I think a simple comment of bollocks is apt and fair.

I'm sure you do think it's fair. But that sums up UKIP doesn't it. UKIP people want life to be simple and how "t used to be". Except that it never was simple and it certainly isn't now. So their collective response in frustration is "bollocks"! and they retreat into simplistic "certainties". In my view it is quite literally a hopeless response but it obviously attracts a lot of people at the moment

 

[pastafarian]

I'm sure you do think it's fair. But that sums up UKIP doesn't it. UKIP people want life to be simple and how "t used to be". Except that it never was simple and it certainly isn't now. So their collective response in frustration is "bollocks"! and they retreat into simplistic "certainties". In my view it is quite literally a hopeless response but it obviously attracts a lot of people at the moment

ok chap whatever,im not a UKIP supporter,but i do love politics,i hate false claims from any political viewpoint.

I thought i asked a number of reasonable questions to you in post #98.

You chose to ignore answering those and instead picked up on my lazy comment of b_llocks a post later.That is entirely up to you.

not much more needs to be said does it

 

[sahel]

ok chap whatever,im not a UKIP supporter,but i do love politics,i hate false claims from any political viewpoint.

I thought i asked a number of reasonable questions to you in post #98.

You chose to ignore answering those and instead picked up on my lazy comment of b_llocks a post later.That is entirely up to you.

not much more needs to be said does it

I'm not trying to have the last word honestly! However in answer to your post 98 I will pose another question which can be rhetorical if you don't want to pursue things further. If you were a member of a club which you thought was a good thing and you wanted to keep going ; and one important member left because they thought it wasn't, what message would you want to send out to other existing members and potential new members? It might be like leaving the Krays to set up on your own - not a good idea!

 

[pastafarian]

I'm not trying to have the last word honestly! However in answer to your post 98 I will pose another question which can be rhetorical if you don't want to pursue things further. If you were a member of a club which you thought was a good thing and you wanted to keep going ; and one important member left because they thought it wasn't, what message would you want to send out to other existing members and potential new members? It might be like leaving the Krays to set up on your own - not a good idea!

The Krays

Where is that thread about shagging horses? I need a reality injection!

 

[cunning fergus]

The thing is the EU has never been just an economic project. Whisper it softly but it has always been a political project. Historically it was a response to two world wars and you can argue it has helped deliver peace and prosperity in Europe. Now it is a beacon to former Soviet Union countries that could well have taken a much darker path. People that believe in it for the future obviously believe that co-operation between states is a much more powerful model than single state sovereignty where states compete and achieve the lowest common denominator in everything from tax to health and safety. The sovereignty you give up in being part of the EU is more than compensated by the pooled sovereignty you receive. The sovereignty of one small state acting alone like the UK is a chimera - it cannot deliver anything meaningful. To trade with other states it has to accept their rules, to deal with cross border crime terrorism and cyber issues it has to co-operate with other countries, an independent foreign policy has no clout, its defence anyway is dependent on NATO - a collection of states. The EU for all its faults represents states acting together for the good of their citizens offering them safety and opportunity that any one state cannot provide. The UK ought to embrace the challenge of trying to make sure it works effectively rather than opting out and going back to the old ways of competition and conflict.

I agree with you, I for one have never considered the EU to be an economic project, however as you indicate the plan for a politicised federal Europe was whispered so softly by the politicians that (unlike you), the public's understanding was that it was only about a single market. How many times were they told previously by politicians of all colours that the EU is not a US of E?

The economic factor is important though because it was destined to be the Trojan Horse that would conceal the political plan from the electorate. The formation of the euro was a key component of this wider political plan, and also the altar on which member states would sacrifice their sovereignty. It is a perverse irony that the recent crisis relating to the euro would have been viewed positively by the swivel eyed euro federalists because the likely solution to the crisis was for more integration by the EZ, as has since some to pass.

The crisis that is currently engulfing the euro has meant that the euro federalists fruits from the forest have had to change tack, and they are no longer using the economic argument to deliver their plan, instead we are told that the EU is responsible for delivering peace and prosperity in Europe. It is surely no coincidence that the EU was recently awarded the Nobel Peace Prize by a euro federalist who twice tried and failed to take in Norway into the EU and is currently the Secretary General of the Counsel of Europe?

However it is as if the EU are an organisational version of Frank Spencer lurching from calamity to calamity, and now we get the Ukraine crisis on the EU's doorstep demonstrating neatly the limitations of EU power. The Germans want the Russian gas, the French want the aircraft carriers sold and we want the money in our banks and listings on the FTSE. EU defence is reliant on NATO which as you say is a collection of states however their security is underwritten by a single significant one. Take that away and what have you got?

On top of that and contrary to your view the EU is through the floor on popularity and the Parliament could be 30% anti EU come the May elections. That tells you everything you need to know about whether the people feel that the EU are acting in their interests.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/24/trust-eu-falls-record-low

In truth everything else you have put up is based on your own view, you cannot back it up with evidence. The fact is with you that you don’t think the UK can be a strong independent country, not because it is not possible, but because that is not what you want; that's OK you are not alone, if our politicians could be as honest as you we would not have so much difficulty understanding their intentions.

 

[sahel]

I agree with you, I for one have never considered the EU to be an economic project, however as you indicate the plan for a politicised federal Europe was whispered so softly by the politicians that (unlike you), the public's understanding was that it was only about a single market. How many times were they told previously by politicians of all colours that the EU is not a US of E?

The economic factor is important though because it was destined to be the Trojan Horse that would conceal the political plan from the electorate. The formation of the euro was a key component of this wider political plan, and also the altar on which member states would sacrifice their sovereignty. It is a perverse irony that the recent crisis relating to the euro would have been viewed positively by the swivel eyed euro federalists because the likely solution to the crisis was for more integration by the EZ, as has since some to pass.

The crisis that is currently engulfing the euro has meant that the euro federalists fruits from the forest have had to change tack, and they are no longer using the economic argument to deliver their plan, instead we are told that the EU is responsible for delivering peace and prosperity in Europe. It is surely no coincidence that the EU was recently awarded the Nobel Peace Prize by a euro federalist who twice tried and failed to take in Norway into the EU and is currently the Secretary General of the Counsel of Europe?

However it is as if the EU are an organisational version of Frank Spencer lurching from calamity to calamity, and now we get the Ukraine crisis on the EU's doorstep demonstrating neatly the limitations of EU power. The Germans want the Russian gas, the French want the aircraft carriers sold and we want the money in our banks and listings on the FTSE. EU defence is reliant on NATO which as you say is a collection of states however their security is underwritten by a single significant one. Take that away and what have you got?

On top of that and contrary to your view the EU is through the floor on popularity and the Parliament could be 30% anti EU come the May elections. That tells you everything you need to know about whether the people feel that the EU are acting in their interests.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/24/trust-eu-falls-record-low

In truth everything else you have put up is based on your own view, you cannot back it up with evidence. The fact is with you that you don’t think the UK can be a strong independent country, not because it is not possible, but because that is not what you want; that's OK you are not alone, if our politicians could be as honest as you we would not have so much difficulty understanding their intentions.

I agree with a lot of what you say but not of course your conclusions ! I don't think the rest of Europe has ever been in doubt about the political intent of the eu. "Ever closer union" says it all. In the uk politicians have clearly never believed in this or have never thought they could carry the public with them.
Shame really. Maybe Europe would be better off without us as De Gaulle always thought and the uk could get what it wishes for. I could go and live in scandinavia if it would have me of course

 

[cunning fergus]

I agree with a lot of what you say but not of course your conclusions ! I don't think the rest of Europe has ever been in doubt about the political intent of the eu. "Ever closer union" says it all. In the uk politicians have clearly never believed in this or have never thought they could carry the public with them.
Shame really. Maybe Europe would be better off without us as De Gaulle always thought and the uk could get what it wishes for. I could go and live in scandinavia if it would have me of course

I agree with your first point, in comparison to their continental peers, UK politicians for many years (and of different flavours) have been guilty of underplaying the significance of the EU and its wider objectives. I dare say much to the dismay of other pro-European politicians and EU bureaucracy

That is not to ignore the reality that the UK’s Politicians have only tended to mirror the UK’s long standing cultural antipathy to the EU. In more recent times I am thinking of The Sun’s “up yours Delors” campaign back in the 90s and the widespread public support for the Metric Martyrs.

In my view it’s no coincidence that 2017 was the year set for a referendum by a pro-European Conservative Party. The demographics of this country have changed significantly in the last 30 years, and with each passing year the generations that were alive when this country was locked in struggle to keep itself free from the dominance of a fascist European movement are in terminal decline and being replaced with millions of JCL British citizens and other Europeans who have bettered themselves by moving to the UK as a consequence of the EU’s free labour market.

Put your move to Scandinavia on hold, I suspect the Tories actuarial calculations for 2017 is comfortably beyond the tipping point.

As for your point relating to ever closer union, as it is drafted in the Treaty of Rome it was evidently not intended to mean the ever closer union of the “member states” as it refers to “peoples”. If it was intended to mean ever closer union of “member states” then surely it would say so, the use of the terms “member states” and “peoples” is used frequently in the Treaty.

“to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe”

If you thought otherwise then you are clearly mistaken.

 

[ofco8]

UKIP will win the most seats at the European elections. But I don't think that, outside the political arena, anyone cares that much. They won't take a single seat at the general election.

Exactly. UKIP will be used as a protest vote to put the frighteners on the main parties and then normal business resumed in general election.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

The real reason the pro EU camp are scaremongering is because they realise a UK exit from the EU creates a domino effect. The more they try to shout down UKIP and stifle debate only puts UKIP in a stronger position.