Trump

[highflyer]

 

[highflyer]

I'm defending your right to be informed without misdirection and spin, I'm defending journalism.

Trump behaves badly is not an excuse for people who we think better of to do the same. If everyone behaves badly, if nobody at all can be trusted, what then?

Not putting out a story which is very evidently a mash-up of truth, half truth and lies and which has been (clumsily) fed to them for very obvious political reasons is GOOD journalism. At least until the full story has been untangled and all aspects fully verified (which can take months)

I can't think of a single journalist I know that would see it any differently and they would not thank you for 'defending' them!

 

[dingodan]

Not putting out a story which is very evidently a mash-up of truth, half truth and lies and which has been (clumsily) fed to them for very obvious political reasons is GOOD journalism. At least until the full story has been untangled and all aspects fully verified (which can take months)

I can't think of a single journalist I know that would see it any differently and they would not thank you for 'defending' them!

Sorry, what story is evidently a mash-up of truth, half truth and lies?

 

[Gwylan]

I recently saw an interview with AOC on CNN when she was asked how she felt about Biden's views on fracking (he's flipped back to pro). AOC's response was that whilst she disagrees with Biden she is looking forward to lobbying him and making her case along with other campaigners, something that is not possible with Trump.

I think this the absolute key point - and it's an important one for the UK too.

There are lots of problems with Trump but one of the biggest is the way that he has become a cult and he is to be supported whatever he says or does. We saw that when he was impeached. The comprehensive Mueller report found prima facie evidence that he'd obstructed justice but, with one exception, Congress rallied behind him. Contrast that with Nixon who knew the jig was up when his party told him to go.

We see it with policy too. Suddenly all these fiscal conservatives are happy with a tripling of the budget deficit with no-one breaking ranks.

Debate is healthy. There's a big gap between AOC and Biden but they're pushing for the same goal.

The UK is going the way of Trump. There's little debate in the Conservative party about the way forward - everyone is a Brexiteer now. And there are no public calls for Johnson to go, despite some evident mishandling of both Covid and Brexit (the fact that he admitted that he didn't understand the full implications of the Withdrawal Agreement should have terminated his career immediately; that was appalling neglect). That's not a healthy situation for a governing party and one that, I think, will lead to trouble in the future.

 

[highflyer]

Sorry, what story is evidently a mash-up of truth, half truth and lies?

You genuinely think that everything that has been put out by the Trump camp on this Hunter Biden smear story is true, and that they took the time to verify it all before going public and presenting it as 'facts'?

Ok...please someone else take over, I'm done for a while.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I'm defending your right to be informed without misdirection and spin, I'm defending journalism.

Trump behaves badly is not an excuse for people who we think better of to do the same. If everyone behaves badly, if nobody at all can be trusted, what then?

Something is not newsworthy because you think it is. Perhaps the news organisations have had a good look and think that actually, it is not relevant or creditable - and is an attempt to muddy waters to make their man somehow look less bad. Your defence does not then look such a noble cause.

I am sure there are plenty of other stories you can look at. Why not look at Russian interference in our electoral system - to take just one news story. Again - why put so much effort into defending a crooked old racist.

 

[dingodan]

You genuinely think that everything that has been put out by the Trump camp on this Hunter Biden smear story is true, and that they took the time to verify it all before going public and presenting it as 'facts'?

Ok...please someone else take over, I'm done for a while.

Nothing has been "put out by the Trump camp", they have commented on it, although actually not a great deal. But the source of the story is documents now in the public domain and witnesses on the record. You may not like the messenger (even though Trump isn't actually the messenger here), but that doesn't say anything about the message.

It's not a "smear story" either. It's just documentation, evidence. It has no motive in and of itself. What it documents is (or should be) highly newsworthy. Under any other circumstances it would be. But this is an election cycle where the media have a strong leaning towards (and against) a particular candidate, and that has led them to not cover a story of serious import. Technically, by omission, this is an attempt to influence the election by the media. They have picked their candidate and are reporting (or not reporting) in accordance with that preference.

That is actually the scandal here. It's a bigger scandal than the story itself. Politicians, presidents, candidates, they come and go. But the media remains. They have published stories of questionable origin in recent times against one candidate, and they are refusing to publish documented and verified stories about another candidate in the run up to the election now. Their dereliction of their duty as journalists and their transparent desire to influence the election is the real story here IMO.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I think this the absolute key point - and it's an important one for the UK too.

There are lots of problems with Trump but one of the biggest is the way that he has become a cult and he is to be supported whatever he says or does. We saw that when he was impeached. The comprehensive Mueller report found prima facie evidence that he'd obstructed justice but, with one exception, Congress rallied behind him. Contrast that with Nixon who knew the jig was up when his party told him to go.

We see it with policy too. Suddenly all these fiscal conservatives are happy with a tripling of the budget deficit with no-one breaking ranks.

Debate is healthy. There's a big gap between AOC and Biden but they're pushing for the same goal.

The UK is going the way of Trump. There's little debate in the Conservative party about the way forward - everyone is a Brexiteer now. And there are no public calls for Johnson to go, despite some evident mishandling of both Covid and Brexit (the fact that he admitted that he didn't understand the full implications of the Withdrawal Agreement should have terminated his career immediately; that was appalling neglect). That's not a healthy situation for a governing party and one that, I think, will lead to trouble in the future.

Yep. Totally agree with all that.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Nothing has been "put out by the Trump camp", they have commented on it, although actually not a great deal. .

Oh do behave.

 

[dingodan]

Something is not newsworthy because you think it is. Perhaps the news organisations have had a good look and think that actually, it is not relevant or creditable - and is an attempt to muddy waters to make their man somehow look less bad. Your defence does not then look such a noble cause.

We can see for ourselves, it is relevant and it is creditable. That isn't in any doubt.

National news outlets are deliberately ignoring the story, but some local news outlets are more independant.

I fail to see why this story being covered by CBS21 in Pennsylvania isn't worthy of coverage by the major news networks.

[TWEET]1322014908339290113[/TWEET]

 

[Gwylan]

Nothing has been "put out by the Trump camp",

That's completely untrue. The source of the allegations in the New York Post was Rudy Giuliani. There's been no attempt to hide that

 

[dingodan]

That's completely untrue. The source of the allegations in the New York Post was Rudy Giuliani. There's been no attempt to hide that

The source material isn't a person, it's documentary evidence. Giuliani is a douchebag of the highest order, no question about that. But the evidence isn't him. And it's undisputed evidence, and evidence verified by other parites to the communications. The NYP story email has been verified by a cyber security expert who is cited by "The Washington Post, the Associated Press, Wired, Engadget and other news and technology outlets".

https://dailycaller.com/2020/10/29/cybersecurity-expert-authenticates-hunter-biden-burisma-email/

Don't assume that the media's reason for not reporting the story is because it lacks credibility, it doesn't. What it does do is damage the Presidential candidate who they want to win the election, and that is a scandalous reason to not cover the story.

 

[drew]

Nothing has been "put out by the Trump camp", they have commented on it, although actually not a great deal. But the source of the story is documents now in the public domain and witnesses on the record. You may not like the messenger (even though Trump isn't actually the messenger here), but that doesn't say anything about the message.

It's not a "smear story" either. It's just documentation, evidence. It has no motive in and of itself. What it documents is (or should be) highly newsworthy. Under any other circumstances it would be. But this is an election cycle where the media have a strong leaning towards (and against) a particular candidate, and that has led them to not cover a story of serious import. Technically, by omission, this is an attempt to influence the election by the media. They have picked their candidate and are reporting (or not reporting) in accordance with that preference.

That is actually the scandal here. It's a bigger scandal than the story itself. Politicians, presidents, candidates, they come and go. But the media remains. They have published stories of questionable origin in recent times against one candidate, and they are refusing to publish documented and verified stories about another candidate in the run up to the election now. Their dereliction of their duty as journalists and their transparent desire to influence the election is the real story here IMO.

Rather blinkered way of looking at it. The whole story comes from a laptop that mysteriously fell into the hands of Bannon and Giuliani. Are you saying they're not .Trump' people?

 

[peterward]

Well surprise surprise. Trumps biggest TV mouthpiece Fox News, who yesterday said the explosive documents package, that would bury the Biden family, had vanished - and was since allegedly found and then sent again to Tucker Carlson. Are now not going to report on it after all?

So assuming UPS are telling the truth and these explosive revelations were found and forwarded, and probably today are in Carlson's and Fox news hands.... they instead now say, they dont want to go after Bidens Son anymore?

Ahhhh hw charitable, what lovely people to have such explosive factual info to hand from the son of a political opponent, but then to have a epiphany of concience and decide not to publish it after all?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/tucker-carlson-suddenly-says-its-time-to-leave-hunter-biden-alone

Whats your answer [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] ? Carlson found God last night? surely no chance that the whole thing was a totally contrived, pack of BS misinformation set up purely designed to try and damage a rival with no factual basis, or was actually based on the debunked NBC obtained bullshit?

 

[dingodan]

Rather blinkered way of looking at it. The whole story comes from a laptop that mysteriously fell into the hands of Bannon and Giuliani. Are you saying they're not .Trump' people?

No they are Trump people. I would also be quite ready to believe that the laptop was actually cloned overseas by an intelligence service, probably an amateur one given that it's been offered around to the highest bidder, but that isn't really the point. The question is what is the veracity of the evidence. If shitty people get hold of reliable evidence, it's still reliable evidence, even if you don't like the person who obtained it.

 

[dingodan]

Well surprise surprise. Trumps biggest TV mouthpiece Fox News, who yesterday said the explosive documents package, that would bury the Biden family, had vanished - and was since allegedly found and then sent again to Tucker Carlson. Are now not going to report on it anymore after all?

So assuming UPS are telling the truth and these explosive revelations were found and forwarded, and probably today are in Carlson's and Fox news hands.... they instead now say, they dont want to go after Bidens Son anymore?

Ahhhh hw charitable, what lovely people to have such explosive factual info to hand from the son of a political opponent, but then to have a epiphany of concience and decide not to publish it after all?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/tucker-carlson-suddenly-says-its-time-to-leave-hunter-biden-alone

Whats your answer [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] ? Carlson found God last night? surely no chance that the whole thing was a totally contrived, pack of BS misinformation set up purely designed to tr and damage a rival with no factual basis, or was actually based on the debunked NBC obtained bullshit?

Did you listen to the piece? or read the article?

First they said they are are still going through the parituclar documents which were "lost" and then "found". They haven't said that they won't be reporting on them when they have done so.

They also said they have recieved a lot of stuff about Hunter Biden, some of it about his personal life. He has been publicly shamed and humiliated with some of the stuff that has come out. They have said they will continue to report on information relevant to Joe Biden. But they will not drag Hunter Biden through the mud on issues relating to his personal life.

Why would you criticize them taking that position? Sounds about right to me tbh.

 

[peterward]

Did you listen to the piece? or read the article?

They have recieved a lot of stuff about Hunter Biden, some of it about his personal life. He has been publicly shamed and humiliated with some of the stuff that has come out. They have said they will continue to report on information relevant to Joe Biden. But they will not drag Hunter Biden through the mud on issues relating to his personal life.

Why would you criticize them taking that position? Sounds about right to me tbh.

Yes I read it fully, did you before you started apologising again?

Yesterday, Carlson said (when they went missing) the documents he believed were real, he said they were "explosive" "damning" to the Biden family and had huge significance to the presidential election.

He also said they were not from Bobulinski.

Now said documents are found, probably in his hands..... And in the article I linked above Carlson is directly quoted.

......adding that it was deeply concerning that such a thing could happen to a “trove of materials that are directly relevant to the presidential campaign that’s six days away.”

Now NBC has clearly proven a dodgy dossier is a fake, Carlson reins back quickly with Hunter has been through enough already and we want to stop now??

Are you really so stupid?

No chance at all the "explosive, damning" documents that could sink then Biden family yesterday, which he said he had verification that he thought we real- which are “trove of materials that are directly relevant to the presidential campaign that’s six days away.”

may in fact be from the dodgy dossier? or do you really believe they are not going to be aired because Hunters feelings have been hurt enough now?

You're deluded - they would stop at NOTHING if they had anything and they genuinely thought or could prove it to be real.

 

[highflyer]

The source material isn't a person, it's documentary evidence .

Source material is not the same as 'source'. The source is the person.

And if you think that any journalist worth their salt doesn't consider the integrity and potential motive of a source for any potentially sensitive story, let alone one of this nature and timing, then you know nothing about how (real) journalism works. Which I suspect is indeed the case.

 

[dingodan]

Source material is not the same as 'source'. The source is the person.

And if you think that any journalist worth their salt doesn't consider the integrity and potential motive of a source for any potetially sensitive story, let alone one of this nature and timing, then you know nothing about how (real) journalism works. Which I suspect is indeed the case.

Hold on, maybe the way I used the word "source" has thrown you. A source is the place from which evidence comes. If the evidence is someones "word" they are the source, and their word is the "source material". If the evidence comes from documentation, then that documentation is the "source material".

We are getting a bit tied up in semantics here, but to be clear the source material is the documentary evidence, not Giuliani.

 

[dingodan]

Yes I read it fully, did you before you started apologising again?

Yesterday, Carlson said (when they went missing) the documents he believed were real, he said they were "explosive" "damning" to the Biden family and had huge significance to the presidential election.

He also said they were not from Bobulinski.

Now said documents are found, probably in his hands..... And in the article I linked above Carlson is directly quoted.

......adding that it was deeply concerning that such a thing could happen to a “trove of materials that are directly relevant to the presidential campaign that’s six days away.”

Now NBC has clearly proven a dodgy dossier is a fake, Carlson reins back quickly with Hunter has been through enough already and we want to stop now??

Are you really so stupid?

No chance at all the "explosive, damning" documents that could sink then Biden family yesterday, which he said he had verification that he thought we real- which are “trove of materials that are directly relevant to the presidential campaign that’s six days away.”

may in fact be from the dodgy dossier? or do you really believe they are not going to be aired because Hunters feelings have been hurt enough now?

You're deluded - they would stop at NOTHING if they had anything and they genuinely thought or could prove it to be real.

He never said they would not air the materials which he mentioned as being "directly relevant to the presidential campaign". He said they are still going through them.

He spoke seperately of other information which they are recieving from people about Hunter's personal life. He is saying they aren't going to air that stuff, it's not relevant to Joe Biden, and that stuff they will not report on, because it's not appropriate.

Don't conflate those two things. Whether the documents which went missing and are now found were really as significant as they said they were is yet to be demonstrated, I fully accept that. But it couldn't be clearer if you listen to the piece. That stuff they now have back and are still going through. Other stuff about Hunter's personal life has been recieved, and that stuff they don't feel is relevant and don't feel it would be fair to cover.

As for the "dossier" that was available to everyone a month ago. It was put in the hands of some senators and nobody paid much attention to it, it is completely unrelated to what is being discussed today, and it's certainly not what they are talking about, because it's old and been around a while. NBC have "debunked" it (proven that the source used a pseudonym) to try to convince people that what they are hearing today is debunked. It's not. That NBC article is an attempt at misdirection.

Stop misrepresenting everything.