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[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...



Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,796
I disagree. Done properly, it can work. I wouldn't argue that the Australian system is perfect, but it is a system that works and it does incorporate elements of means testing. It's been a long time since I was directly exposed to it, but it doesn't result in people avoiding health care and it doesn't price people out.

For starters, the example you provide of the means testing you experience: I absolutely agree with you that that is a load of BS. Means testing should always be based on an individuals' *current* ability to pay, not on some historical ability. It should also be based on current liquid assets - I disagree with including the notional on-paper value of a house (for example), which I believe the Aussie system does look at.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid.

Ultimately, though ... I'm flexible. We all want the same end product: a robust, well run, efficient health service that ensures that everyone has affordable (ideally free at point of access), easy access to health care where everyone pays a fair share into making that happen. Whether that's done purely through taxation, or other means, I'm not that fussed. But on the evidence of the last 10 years or so (and having a wife who works in the NHS and seen it all from the inside) I very much doubt either party will have the political fortitude to do it purely through taxation - which means looking at alternative options.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid. I don't think many would disagree with that statement but what we should do is fix that problem , not create another.
 




nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,400
Gods country fortnightly
The last 2 years is a pretty good indicator of what happens when the private organisations get involved with health i.e. the huge amounts of profit made on PPE by individuals and don't get me started on the pharma companies exploiting people in a bad position.

The NHS is far from perfect (have spent 3 years in close attention) but the principle is right and it needs improving. There is waste , incredible amounts, but its a very large organisation and hard to control at times and even harder when its given a battering by government and puts people in charge to run as a short term business rather than a long term process e.g. recruitment of doctors & nurses should be much more structured and tied into the education process.

There are examples where private money helps the NHS , the Royal Marsden is a great example of this but the key point is its not there to make a profit....

A good start would have been to get PPE from NHS vendors that actually supply PPE and get NHS procurement to run the show, not government.

Individuals exploited this to reward their mates and make a fast buck. We ended up with huge amounts of defective material and massively inflated prices paid to dodgy bros with little trading history
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,243
Uckfield
I don't think many would disagree with that statement but what we should do is fix that problem , not create another.

Oh absolutely, would love to see the tax system fixed so that everyone pays their fair share. Not sure if that's actually possible. Would love to see a government have a proper go at it though.

Back in Australia had an example very close to home. My dad, in the RAAF, earning enough to get by on but not so much as to be rich enough to hire an accountant. Earning enough to be above all of the thresholds for things like additional child support to pay for school expenses etc. One of my uncles, on the other hand, owning a highly successful business, able to hire a skillful accountant, and thus able to show the tax man a very minimal income tax profile and qualify for all of the government handouts despite being far better off than we ever were. (Note: no blame attached to my uncle. Get on very well with him and his family, and everything they did was legal at the time. They just had the means to be able to exploit all the loopholes and we didn't).
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
13,979
Cumbria


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,627
Faversham
A system funded by compulsory health insurance would not change anything with regard to people paying for something they don’t use. That’s the whole point of insurance. I am fundamentally pro NHS Harry. I just don’t think it has to be funded in its current way. That doesn’t mean I want it destroyed. Far from it. Germany is not a right wing country yet does things differently so you cannot dismiss all objection as emanating from dark corners of the Tory party. Nothing will change though and we will continue with all of the problems you describe precisely because of the ideological warfare of the two opposing binary views. It all just becomes another platform for insult. The thread has moved off in a different direction from that originally intended and I am partly to blame for that for which I apologize.

No worries. I'm happy as long as it isn't 'defunded' or flogged off. Yes, there may well be different ways of funding it. It won't get any less costly to run until the internal market structure is jettisoned, however. We have both explored off topic issues. It's the way it goes :wink: :thumbsup:
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,627
Faversham
I disagree. Done properly, it can work. I wouldn't argue that the Australian system is perfect, but it is a system that works and it does incorporate elements of means testing. It's been a long time since I was directly exposed to it, but it doesn't result in people avoiding health care and it doesn't price people out.

For starters, the example you provide of the means testing you experience: I absolutely agree with you that that is a load of BS. Means testing should always be based on an individuals' *current* ability to pay, not on some historical ability. It should also be based on current liquid assets - I disagree with including the notional on-paper value of a house (for example), which I believe the Aussie system does look at.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid.

Ultimately, though ... I'm flexible. We all want the same end product: a robust, well run, efficient health service that ensures that everyone has affordable (ideally free at point of access), easy access to health care where everyone pays a fair share into making that happen. Whether that's done purely through taxation, or other means, I'm not that fussed. But on the evidence of the last 10 years or so (and having a wife who works in the NHS and seen it all from the inside) I very much doubt either party will have the political fortitude to do it purely through taxation - which means looking at alternative options.

It is possible to change the health system in many different ways but all the ducks need to be lined up. As [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] indcates, this country we seem to be zen masters at not lining up ducks. A cynic would argue this is done deliberately to discredit certain systems (i.e., the socialist ones) but I am more inclined to blame it on carelessness and lack of accountability. I sit on on several committees involved in NHS management, and I am already seeing one 'health partner' trust bidding to take over another. It's cowboy country, and it will only get worse if more market mores are introduced.

So, I have not bothered to list all the good aspects of the NHS, but I have listed the ones that should be fixed. With that, there is no need to fundamentally alter the system. That's what 'they' want us to do.

I am open to change but the solutions I have seen offered all seem to be akin to the ones you get from mates down the pub when moaning about the missus, i.e., 'get yourself a new bird, mate'. :shrug:
 
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Berty23

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2012
3,618
Imagine spending ages telling footballers like Rashford that they should stay out of politics and then suggest footballers and clubs that they should take it upon themselves to refuse to play in a match in a country launching a war when you have far more powerful tools at your disposal and you are the Erm….government.
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,243
Uckfield
It is possible to change the health system in many different ways but all the ducks need to be lined up. As [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] indcates, this country we seem to be zen masters at not lining up ducks. A cynic would argue this is done deliberately to discredit certain systems (i.e., the socialist ones) but I am more inclined to blame it on carelessness and lack of accountability. I sit on on several committees involved in NHS management, and I am already seeing one 'health partner' trust bidding to take over another. It's cowboy country, and it will only get worse if more market mores are introduced.

So, I have not bothered to list all the good aspects of the NHS, but I have listed the ones that should be fixed. With that, there is no need to fundamentally alter the system. That's what 'they' want us to do.

I am open to change but the solutions I have seen offered all seem to be akin to the ones you get from mates down the pub when moaning about the missus, i.e., 'get yourself a new bird, mate'. :shrug:

Don't get me started on the trust system. My firm opinion: that's one of the massive flaws in the NHS. While I can see where there might be some advantages in allowing for localised decisions to be made instead of blindly following national guidance, there are too many problems created that outweigh the benefits IMO. Especially for those patients who get transferred across trusts during treatment and the issues that arise from that in terms of moving patient notes etc.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,627
Faversham
Don't get me started on the trust system. My firm opinion: that's one of the massive flaws in the NHS. While I can see where there might be some advantages in allowing for localised decisions to be made instead of blindly following national guidance, there are too many problems created that outweigh the benefits IMO. Especially for those patients who get transferred across trusts during treatment and the issues that arise from that in terms of moving patient notes etc.

'Trust' is one of those Orwellian words that emerged after the start of the 80s.....probably around 1984. Fancy that! :lolol: :thumbsup:
 












Raleigh Chopper

New member
Sep 1, 2011
12,054
Plymouth
If the Russians were invading the UK, I suspect Johnson & Sunak would have flown to the US long ago, cowardly trying to run the country remotely from the bunker below the White House. Pair of ***s.

I suspect that you are right.
After all he did run into a fridge and hide and that was because he was being a difficult question.
 




Baker lite

Banned
Mar 16, 2017
6,309
in my house
And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.
 


Hugo Rune

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 23, 2012
23,558
Brighton
And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

I think people have moved on to the £1.8m donation by a Kremlin insider to the Conservative party, the single biggest donation from a female in the party’s history.
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
13,979
Cumbria
And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

Most, if not all, of us are going about our normal jobs and business - with it's usual pleasures and annoyances. I daresay we'll all be watching football this afternoon.

Life does happen on multiple planes - it's quite okay to be discussing, and getting annoyed, about two different things at once.

Police work and the courts haven't shut down.
 


Not Andy Naylor

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2007
8,975
Seven Dials
The contrast to the heroic Ukrainian President is heartbreaking.

I was thinking exactly the same. All those Tories and Brexiters who love to bang on about the Blitz spirit and WWII would be running for the hills, or their tax havens in the Caribbean.
 






Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,409
Mid Sussex
And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

Don’t be a prick. The question of Russian money funding the Brexit campaign has always been there. It was pushed under the carpet by Boris the prick because it was apparently ‘fake news’ …. Birds and roosts spring to mind.
It light of recent events you can view Brexit as a devide and conquer strategy for Putin.
Any journo with a modicum of intelligence will be over this like a rash.

Parties at Downing Street are the least of his worries.


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