The single most powerful piece of writing I have read for a very long time

[Creaky]

And I would agree that re-introducing the death penalty is moral madness but others as sane, as clever, just as morally upright take opposite views to us. They would argue that it isn't simply revenge, Cadiz Seagull's quotes from Lord Denning absolutely nail the reasons for doing so and it's nothing quite so simplistic as how you want to paint it.

Your argument that 'just because a majority in a democracy think something is right doesn't necessarily make it right' doesn't demonstrate anything other than your own views on the subject and your insistence that your view is the only right view. By its very definition if the majority in any democratic society hold a particular view and that view is the one that holds sway in law then it has to be right for that society. Views can and do change but at that moment that is the 'right' view.

That's where you and I disagree with each other.

You suggested that the majority of people would turn down the opportunity of receiving a £5,000 bonus from the Exchequer because they'd be clever enough to see the problems that would cause - personally I disagree, I think the motivation of financial greed would overcome that objection - very few people in my experience vote for an individual or party because they believe that will be best for the country despite being 'bad' for them on a personal basis.

We actually live in a representatitive democracy in any case, so arguments about what the majority of the population as individuals desire are irrelevant - whichever way you look at it, arguing that because polls show that a small majority, (and it is a diminishing majority), want a return of capital punishment it should therefore be reintroduced is totally fallacious.

I'm more than happy to discuss with anyone the merits or otherwise of capital punishment but a majority of the general population being in favour bears no real weight.

 

[Buzzer]

That's where you and I disagree with each other.

Sod the fact that the majority believe something to be the right way to do something. Nanny knows best.

 

[lawros left foot]

All the time there is room for mistaken convictions either by police incompetence or corruption, there is no way that any sensible person could ever vote for a return of the death penalty. To my mind, if it was ever put to a referendum, the timing would be crucial, Just after a Lee Rigby type atrocity, or a child rape and murder scenario, then it would be a landslide. However, I think that paedophile murderers, and terrorist, , although the most emotive crimes, are the least likely to be affected by the death of the perpetrator, due to the uncontrollable urges of the paedophile, and the need for some kind of martyrdom of the other

 

[Creaky]

Sod the fact that the majority believe something to be the right way to do something. Nanny knows best.

You are right of course - democracy breeds the nanny state - always somebody telling you what you can or cannot do - how you should or shouldn't behave.

 

[Buzzer]

You are right of course - democracy breeds the nanny state - always somebody telling you what you can or cannot do - how you should or shouldn't behave.

Sigh, you do have a very good knack of twisting the points that other people make. The majority view being the prevailing one is far removed from your stance which is "I'm right, you're wrong and I don't care who agrees".

And I do find it amusing that you dismiss my arguments as fallacious and irrelevant straight after you've dreamt up your £5000 referendum.

 

[Creaky]

Sigh, you do have a very good knack of twisting the points that other people make. The majority view being the prevailing one is far removed from your stance which is "I'm right, you're wrong and I don't care who agrees".

And I do find it amusing that you dismiss my arguments as fallacious and irrelevant straight after you've dreamt up your £5000 referendum.

Maybe you should try and make your points clearer rather than trying to be too clever

 

[Buzzer]

Maybe you should try and make your points clearer rather than trying to be too clever

Oh, my points are very clear as well you know. I'm just letting you know that we're all aware of your modus operandi.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Thank Christ I've been on the dead dog thread all day.

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

I think you will find your view is in the minority though. If the government gave the people a free vote on whether to bring back the death penalty, on crimes like child rape, premeditated murder, terrrorism and the like, then it would be passed without a doubt in my opinion.

THe case of this thread, is the exact reason why I believe the death penalty, in his case, is correct. The only issue I have with it, is the crime was committed in 1998. So why is the **** still breathing and writing shit in 2014?!?

He who shout's loudest isn't always right. Just because the likes of the Sun and Daily Hate peddle the same line, doesn't mean that the country would vote for bringing back the death penalty. It is an even more dangerous proposition when you consider the impact of Joint Enterprise. I doubt you would want to see one of your relatives executed under such a point of law, merely for going to a house party with some friends, unaware that one of their friends was going to seek retribution against someone else at said house party.

 

[kevtherev]

Don't go out to rob someone with a knife and slit their throat and you wouldn't be facing the death penalty. Same goes for murdering someone etc, simples really....Length of rope, or a lethal injection is far cheaper than keeping the likes of Brady & Huntley alive, draining money from the system. They serve no purpose, so get rid.

 

[Hugh'sDad]

This was powerful too

It really IS better to give than receive.

Try to remember this if you ever feel like being mean to people less well off than yourselves.......we received this letter at our workplace a few days ago (redacted for obvious reasons)

Dear *****,
I want to thank you all at ************ Ltd for your kind donation of a DAB radio – I just felt I had to explain how much of a difference it has made to my life.
I live at ****** House, in Brighton, which is a sheltered residence for elderly folk. I don’t see my family so much, as the have moved away for work reasons, and have little money to visit in these austere days.
I have always loved music from way back, and spent many happy nights dancing to musical ensemble at the ol Regent dance hall in Queens Road. But I was unable to bring my radiogram here because it was so big. My next room neighbour at the home, Mrs ***** is rather deaf and often has her radio on loud....but only enough to be a fuzzy ‘noise’, through the wall. I often used to visit her in the hope that she would let me listen or just have a cup of tea with her. But Mrs ******* could never stand to see me happy and dancing with glee when Glen Millar or people like that came on.......she always made an excuse about ‘saving the batteries’ or not wanting to ‘annoy the others’ and would turn it off.
So now I have your DAB radio and it makes me so happy. I can listen to so many stations and I hardly ever feel lonely now. In fact Mrs ***** came to my room the other day and informed me she had knocked her own radio on the floor and broken it........” could I listen to yours?” she said.
Of course, I told her to go fork herself, and threw her out........so you have made an old girl very happy

Bless you all at ****** Ltd
Love from
MRS ****

 

[Bold Seagull]

Don't go out to rob someone with a knife and slit their throat and you wouldn't be facing the death penalty. Same goes for murdering someone etc, simples really....Length of rope, or a lethal injection is far cheaper than keeping the likes of Brady & Huntley alive, draining money from the system. They serve no purpose, so get rid.

That's not true. There are studies showing that the Death Penalty is more expensive. States like Kansas abolished the DP and found they were saving $500m per case. Colorado are also looking to abolish it and are using the money saved to put toward investigation units to solve murder cases.

It's a complete misconception that it saves money over incarcerating someone for life.

http://www.economist.com/node/13279051

 

[Tubby-McFat-Fuc]

It is an even more dangerous proposition when you consider the impact of Joint Enterprise. I doubt you would want to see one of your relatives executed under such a point of law, merely for going to a house party with some friends, unaware that one of their friends was going to seek retribution against someone else at said house party.

What are you talking about? Why the hell would someone been executed for going to a party with someone?? I don't think anyone would want to see the death penalty for that! Have you been taken tricked by the poor man in the OP story?

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

What are you talking about? Why the hell would someone been executed for going to a party with someone?? I don't think anyone would want to see the death penalty for that! Have you been taken tricked by the poor man in the OP story?

Perhaps some further reading into Joint Enterprise and the law around it may help you understand. A link and two paragraphs to assist you on your way.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...prise-guidelines-prevent-miscarriages-justice

There has been a growing chorus of discontent from legal experts and campaigners over the extensive use in the last decade of this 300-year-old legislation to find people guilty of a violent crime if they are judged to have lent encouragement to the main perpetrator. It is criticised for dragging innocent bystanders and lesser participants into a serious crime and condemning them to long jail terms, when arguably they should never have been charged, let alone convicted.

Wayne Collins, 25, a barber from Luton, who is serving an 18-year sentence, is a typical case. He and a friend were at the Barton Arms pub in Aston, Birmingham, one night in August 2010, where a group of men, whom Collins didn't know, were milling around. Within seconds, the group started smashing up the pub and setting fire to it. The rioting lasted six minutes, during which police and a helicopter arrived. When the crowd started running, so did Collins, as someone fired at the police. His presence at the scene of the crime, and "association" with two co-defendants, one of whom was found guilty of shooting, was enough to get him convicted.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Having read the plea by Jasper and the mail that showed his crimes...I can only think that Jasper is making a desperate plea for help...he went there with the intention to kill so there were no witnesses, and to rob...the intention to kill is murder...not manslaughter...people say they are one off murder cases...how many prisoners have we released only to commit the same crime again.
I was a young lad when Craig and Bentley were convicted...it was a four page spread in the press...main story,the actual crime,court case and verdict.
Now you see just a small column tucked into a corner of a paper...has it come to this,that murder is not a big crime anymore...that the state should spend millions keeping these people locked up for life...twelve years...serve eight with remission...it's a joke.
Intent to kill,then I would advocate the death penalty...how do you think the family of the victim feel if the murder got off with 8 years prison...the family are the ones serving a life sentence.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Having read the plea by Jasper and the mail that showed his crimes...I can only think that Jasper is making a desperate plea for help...he went there with the intention to kill so there were no witnesses, and to rob...the intention to kill is murder...not manslaughter...people say they are one off murder cases...how many prisoners have we released only to commit the same crime again.
I was a young lad when Craig and Bentley were convicted...it was a four page spread in the press...main story,the actual crime,court case and verdict.
Now you see just a small column tucked into a corner of a paper...has it come to this,that murder is not a big crime anymore...that the state should spend millions keeping these people locked up for life...twelve years...serve eight with remission...it's a joke.
Intent to kill,then I would advocate the death penalty...how do you think the family of the victim feel if the murder got off with 8 years prison...the family are the ones serving a life sentence.

Really!? The press was filled with the Jo Yeates murder, the Dale Cregan murder of police officers in Manchester, the PC Blakelock case, Joanna Dennehy. Not sure many murders get tucked away in our 24hr press.

As I said above, the death penalty costs more than life imprisonment. See the article in the economist and that various US states are abolishing the death penalty partly for this reason, or at least part of the justification.

Keep them locked up. Ian Brady has wanted to die for years. Death would be letting him off lightly.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Am I alone in thinking that the fact this bloke was not as innocent as one first thought actually adds more weight to his arguments. While it's not necessarily the best written letter in the world, he obviously has the ability to think and express himself cogently about matters of justice and so on. I think it would be more beneficial to American Society to employ him as a special adviser to the Justice Department than to execute him.

And just for the record, I am totally and implacably opposed to the death penalty, and have been for over forty years, and totally agree with everything the letter says about the stance of the Southern Preachers who uphold the Death Penalty. They are extremely selective in what texts they use. Noah is not exactly new testament.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Really!? The press was filled with the Jo Yeates murder, the Dale Cregan murder of police officers in Manchester, the PC Blakelock case, Joanna Dennehy. Not sure many murders get tucked away in our 24hr press.

As I said above, the death penalty costs more than life imprisonment. See the article in the economist and that various US states are abolishing the death penalty partly for this reason, or at least part of the justification.

Keep them locked up. Ian Brady has wanted to die for years. Death would be letting him off lightly.

Your'e entitled to your view...but you and I will have to agree to disagree. Brady is not in the right frame of mind...how many millions has it cost to keep him and Hindley in prison...far more than it would have cost for the use of a hangman, funeral,interment,you are talking about the US and it's cost for execution,not the UK...a killer,especially child killers have no right to life..you give up all rights once you commit this crime. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it was (God forbid) your family who suffered a loss...deliberate murder deserves the ultimate penalty.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Your'e entitled to your view...but you and I will have to agree to disagree. Brady is not in the right frame of mind...how many millions has it cost to keep him and Hindley in prison...far more than it would have cost for the use of a hangman, funeral,interment,you are talking about the US and it's cost for execution,not the UK...a killer,especially child killers have no right to life..you give up all rights once you commit this crime. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it was (God forbid) your family who suffered a loss...deliberate murder deserves the ultimate penalty.

I don't understand why taking life is right when it is carried out by the state.

 

[clapham_gull]

I think you will find your view is in the minority though. If the government gave the people a free vote on whether to bring back the death penalty, on crimes like child rape, premeditated murder, terrrorism and the like, then it would be passed without a doubt in my opinion.

THe case of this thread, is the exact reason why I believe the death penalty, in his case, is correct. The only issue I have with it, is the crime was committed in 1998. So why is the **** still breathing and writing shit in 2014?!?

It isn't in the minority. The question splits the UK population right down the middle.