*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[Don't get me started]

Out Out Out. Please don't confuse the EU with Europe they are two totally different things. This is a stagnant organisation run by the Germans with minimal democracy. Look at TTIP and how that's being covered up by the masters in Brussels (or Strasbourg at the moment as they have to share....). Why would we want to stay in this awful bloc?

 

[BarnhamBlue]

I don't actually care one way or the other, I do not see any direct impact on my life.

Unfortunately, like 000's others, i would lose my job if we're voted out. I work in our Company's European HQ based in London. The company is already making provisions to move to Paris just in case....!

 

[Soulman]

Firmly in the out camp. This is the organisation that has:
Never had it's accounts signed off.
Tells countries that vote against it's agenda to vote again until they make the right choice.
Installs technocrats into countries that dare to not adopt the EU line.
Relies on fudging things and won't face the reality on the Euro.
Is removing democracy from the citizens.

Not for me thanks.
Europe as a free-trade area? Yes please , all day long.
Europe pulling together on defence, etc. Again, another big yes.
Europe as a superstate. No thanks.

I feel the same.
A thread about keeping the UK in Europe started and championed by a poster that lives in Germany, whatever next a vegan as agriculture minister......

 

[Billy the Fish]

Absolutely stay in.

With all the stuff about Tim Peake, our latest astronaut, over the last few days, and our glorious Prime Minister saying yesterday in the House what a triumph for British space exploration this is, there is a very interesting article in the Guardian today by Simon Jenkins pointing out that:
1. We have only put something like £16million in to the International Space station programme altogether...... and
2. He is actually there thanks to the European Space Agency, so all the schoolkids who are waving Union jacks perhaps should actually be waving European Flags... and
3. This is actually the 373rd flight to the International Space Station, so where were we for the other 372.

Of course, if we were by ourselves and not in Europe, the money we would have saved would mean that we would have colonised Pluto by now.

Things like this are lovely, of course. But how does any of that make my life more prosperous?

The answers should be based 90% on financial reasons. Any cultural reason people can give for/against will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Will be voting in. The most important vote of my lifetime so far. The UK can claim its rightful place at the top table of Europe and make the EU work for the UK, or it can unilaterally surrender its influence and watch France and Germany make rules that we will have to swallow anyway.

This argument depends if you think we've ever had any meaningful influence at the EU. Nobody since Thatcher has managed to stand up to the German/Franco axis. We aren't at the top table and never will be, we've already surrendered too much power (Thanks Tony ) under the guise of maintaining influence.

 

[Bob!]

Things like this are lovely, of course. But how does any of that make my life more prosperous?

The answers should be based 90% on financial reasons. Any cultural reason people can give for/against will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Why?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I feel the same.
A thread about keeping the UK in Europe started and championed by a poster that lives in Germany, whatever next a vegan as agriculture minister......

Perfect qualifications I'd say.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The answers should be based 90% on financial reasons. Any cultural reason people can give for/against will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree. The economy is very very important as it provides the means for a lot of other stuff. But, it's not the be-all. Culture is highly important as well. We need the means to live, but we also need a reason to live.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This argument depends if you think we've ever had any meaningful influence at the EU. Nobody since Thatcher has managed to stand up to the German/Franco axis. We aren't at the top table and never will be, we've already surrendered too much power (Thanks Tony ) under the guise of maintaining influence.

I agree with certain parts of this but we can, and should be, at the top table. The UK can off a lot to the EU.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Why?

Because culture will exist regardless of whether we're in that club or not. It's not something that should be governed by imaginary boundaries. We will still interact with our neighbours and we would still be part of the European continent.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Things like this are lovely, of course. But how does any of that make my life more prosperous?

The answers should be based 90% on financial reasons. Any cultural reason people can give for/against will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

The actual man point of the Simon jenkins article was that the whole Space thing is a waste of money, irrespective of whether it is European or not. And I have some sympathy with his view.

I would set much more store than you on the cultural/historical stuff, but at the same time think that the economic and political case is very strong. Cameron very recently was talking about the powers we have already repatriated to our own government. I would like to see him name them, because I really think all that is a myth. There was a government report which none of the press highlighted in the run up to the election where the Conservatives had asked the Civil Service to come up with a list of powers we would want to bring back to Westminster. They couldn't find any..

 

[Frampler]

Why does anyone think the UK will be allowed access to the EU single market without signing up to EU Directives? The European Free Trade Area currently consists of Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway. To sell into the EU without customs tariffs, these countries have to sign up to around 80% of EU law, including the employment law and the principle of freedom of movement. There is no world in which Britain gets to dictate the terms of free trade to everyone else - we don't have the leverage, and Cameron has burnt a lot of bridges in Europe.

 

[heathgate]

Europe as a free-trade area? Yes please , all day long.
Europe pulling together on defence, etc. Again, another big yes.
Europe as a superstate. No thanks.

Spot on.

 

[spring hall convert]

Firmly in the out camp. This is the organisation that has:
Never had it's accounts signed off.
Tells countries that vote against it's agenda to vote again until they make the right choice.
Installs technocrats into countries that dare to not adopt the EU line.
Relies on fudging things and won't face the reality on the Euro.
Is removing democracy from the citizens.

Not for me thanks.
Europe as a free-trade area? Yes please , all day long.
Europe pulling together on defence, etc. Again, another big yes.
Europe as a superstate. No thanks.

Having spent a long time in my life as fervently pro-European, this pretty much exactly states my position. I'm looking likely to vote leave as things stand.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why does anyone think the UK will be allowed access to the EU single market without signing up to EU Directives? The European Free Trade Area currently consists of Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway. To sell into the EU without customs tariffs, these countries have to sign up to around 80% of EU law, including the employment law and the principle of freedom of movement. There is no world in which Britain gets to dictate the terms of free trade to everyone else - we don't have the leverage, and Cameron has burnt a lot of bridges in Europe.

True. And being more specific you need to sign up to the 4 freedoms ie freedom of movement for capital, services, goods and people. You can't trade otherwise...just ask Switzerland this. So you have to subscribe to the main the rules without a vote. And what would be the point in this?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Some of the arguments against are very compelling but willing to be convinced otherwise. Can you provide a few concrete examples or a few facts to flesh out that rather vague list of platitudinous 'better off within' reasons?

Maybe in the new year I'll start a thread detailing a daily specific item which Herr Tubthumper encounters, and benefits from, as he goes about his jolly european life?

(Tongue is partly in check)

 

[Deleted member 22389]

We pay a lot of money out in return for more bureaucracy and more people. The UK hasn't changed for the better. My quality of life is more important so OUT please.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

I agree with certain parts of this but we can, and should be, at the top table. The UK can off a lot to the EU.

Herr Tub.....I take it you meant ' offer' a lot to the EU....precisely...I agree because it's been all take from the UK and offer very little in return..
The EU sold us £61 billion more to us than we sold to them...for over a year we have sold more to the rest of the world than we did to the EU and we paid £9 billion a year to the EU for the privilege.
The EU is corrupt and has not ever managed to ratify it's accounts...dubious land held for French farmers so they can claim sub...which in turn destroyed our fishing fleet...Spanish fisherman registering in the UK so they can fish our waters but take their catch back to Spain.
EU....nah! I would like a vote on who rules the UK ...not an unelected European
EU.....NO!NO! NO!.

 

[alfredmizen]

Will be voting in. The most important vote of my lifetime so far. The UK can claim its rightful place at the top table of Europe and make the EU work for the UK, or it can unilaterally surrender its influence and watch France and Germany make rules that we will have to swallow anyway.


If you want the UK to be more than a big Norway without the oil vote leave, if you have a semblance of ambition for this country vote stay.

But we do have the oil.

 

[glasfryn]

was in right from the start
now well out
they could not run a p1ss up in a brewery
and its become the gravy train it always was only even more so
and if we do stay in don,t let the russians in