The Holocaust

[Citrus]

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Those who are interested in the Soviet persecutions under Stalin should read Gulag by Anne Applebaum which is a very interesting book with lots of eye witness accounts. Yes there was terror and murder in Soviet Russia and deliberate famine in the Ukraine between 1929-33 to browbeat the rich peasants into conforming to the Communist system. However, the major difference between the Soviets and the Nazis were that the letter deliberately built camps and buildings for the sole purpose of exterminating human beings. The Soviets built camps and dumped people there to work gold mines, logging camps, coal mines, nickel mines - basically using people as slave labour. There was an interest from the Kremlin in keeping people alive for as little cost as possible. However, many of these camps were situated in the northern Arctic areas far away from the centre and prone to neglect, incompetence, ruthless sadism, hunger and violence depending on who was in charge of the camps. It was possible to actually serve your sentance then get a job as a guard in the same camp. This wasn't the case in Nazi Germany. AS mentioned the difference was the deliberate planning of the dispossession, movement, incarceration then murder of the Jews (and also Gypsys, homosexuals, Poles and Russians). The Armenian, Cambodian and Rwandan genocides tended to be acts of violence towards individuals in very large numbers.

Lastly, the weak leader theory of Hitler has been disproved. The reason he did not write anything down is because he hated paperwork. He'd say what was wanted then his minions would run off and do the dirty work. Subsequently his regime ran on the principle of who could gain access to Hitler which gave great powers to whoever his secretary was. Until 1941 this was Rudolph Hess, after that date it was Martin Bormann.

 

[NMH]

Genocide has been exercised throughout history. Slaughters happened recently in Yugoslavia, and it rears it's head in African areas sporadically.

Man's propensity to fester hatred within his spleen for other men, under the guise of cultural collectivity, will never cease.

What can make mankind change this? Will the internet help to spread peace and sympathy through the World ?
I wouldn't place much hope that anything will ever change.

Look to your-selves ! Will you have sympathy for those you perceive to be your enemies ? Do we care enough about the (hundreds of thousands of) Iraqi lads who were driven to fight in Kuwait by Saddam, then massacred by US high-tech weaponry and airpower ?

Who pays the ultimate price when leaders arrange some dastardly devilry ? Who dies in the bombing of villages?
It's always the innocents, and armies are pawns of the power-hungry.

I don't have a solution, but I would not have gone to Vietnam
to fuel a political disagreement, for instance.

We are men and women of the World, a World where there are no lines of borders - those are only in minds. Reach out and get to know and befriend someone from another culture, and two steps have been made towards opening doors to a better future .

Do you personally have a friend from Pakistan, or Turkey, or Saudi, Tunisia, Serbia, Malawi, Indonesia, China, Denmark, Chile or France ?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

They all are. Which EU presidential candidate did you vote for?

So you think all Europeans are politically retarded. Even the Swedes, who just voted against the single currency in a referendum? I thought you would appreciate that example of democracy at work.

 

[Citrus]

Cheese...

 

[DJ Leon]

Paolo di Canio appears quite intelligent, which makes his admiration for Mussolini
even more unacceptable. It is well documented through interviews and, I believe, mentioned in his autobiograpy.

What has always interested me is the admiration the entire French nation has for Napoleon - a tyrant if ever there was one. Are Di Canio's beliefs anymore unnacceptable than the French nations?

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Bad Ash]

My job title is 'German Pensions Officer' in reality it is 'Holocuaust Reparations Officer'. I wont bore you with the details but it can involve with speaking to victims and their relatives a bit, which is um rather delicate...

 

[South Stand Zealot]

The precursor of the KGB was the NKVD.

Belsen wasn't a transit camp. It originally held important Jews and their familieswhom the Nazis were going to release to the Allies in exchange for money or goods. That never came about though.

Eventually when the eastern concentration camps (KZLs) were about to be over run by the Red Army the Nazis abandoned them and made the prisoners walk west. Many of these people came from camps like Auchwitz including of course Anne Frank.

Belsen became hideously overcrowded. The Nazi management of the camp broke down and when the British Army liberated it thousands of dead and dying were found. Most of the dead had to be bulldozed into large pits. They are there to this day.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Stalin also murdered upto 200,000 German prisoners of war via detention in Gulags after hostilities ceased. An interesting paradox in a way, seeing as very few of the average Wehracht soldiers (spelling?) were card carrying Nazi's.

Also, no one has mentioned Harold MacMillian abandoning thousands of Russia Cossacks (Ukranians I beleive) who fought on the side of the Germans in WW11 (because they were supposedly fighting for liberation from Russia), to the Russians who ended up slaughtering them.

No political leader ever escapes without blood on their hands regardless for the motives of entering a way, its the very nature of modern war.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

I went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago and agree with all that´s been said before. But the place that really got to me was Birkenau, a few miles down the road at the end of the railway lines. Auschwitz was more of a holding camp (exterminations did go on there) but Birkenau was where the mass killings went on, in the gas chambers. Thousands of people getting offf trains and herded towards the gas chambers and the crematoria. The organisation involved is unbelieveable! The place is HUGE - i defy anyone to walk around there and not get a massive lump in the throat.
When I was there I really didn´t want to go, but felt I should. So should everyone, once in their lives. Just to remind us what the human race is capable of. If we forget it, or ignore it, or consign it to history, it´ll happen again.
And yes, Mila 18 was a great book

 

[Dandyman]

[BAlso, no one has mentioned Harold MacMillian abandoning thousands of Russia Cossacks (Ukranians I beleive) who fought on the side of the Germans in WW11 (because they were supposedly fighting for liberation from Russia), to the Russians who ended up slaughtering them.
[/B]

These wonderful patriots were also responsible for the slaughter of their fellow citizens (Jews, Russians, Ukrainians, Balts, etc) and a string of war crimes too numerous to list. Handing them back was IMHO entirely correct. If you want a fuller account I'd suggest checking out a book called "Justice Delayed" by David Ceserani.

 

[looney]

The precursor of the KGB was the NKVD.

Belsen wasn't a transit camp. It originally held important Jews and their familieswhom the Nazis were going to release to the Allies in exchange for money or goods. That never came about though.

Eventually when the eastern concentration camps (KZLs) were about to be over run by the Red Army the Nazis abandoned them and made the prisoners walk west. Many of these people came from camps like Auchwitz including of course Anne Frank.

Belsen became hideously overcrowded. The Nazi management of the camp broke down and when the British Army liberated it thousands of dead and dying were found. Most of the dead had to be bulldozed into large pits. They are there to this day.

What you have said does not contradict most of what I said, and yes it was a transit camp as Ive seen the documents. It wasn't set up as an exstermination camp. The deaths you speak of reflect the break down of the nazi war machine towards the end of the war that was common in most camps.

 

[Brovion]

Looney, a simple question; are you what they call a 'Holocaust Denier?'

I helped my daughter do some research on Nazi Concentration camps a few years ago and I was amazed and appalled at the amount of web sites that basically say that all the deaths were unplanned and merely a result of 'disease and over-crowding'. These sites also said that the number of dead has been greatly exagerrated, there was no organised 'Final Solution' and certainly no gas chambers.