The Guardian officially vote for . . . . .

[Buzzer]

As Ian Lavery says above, Farage only left the Tory party over Europe. Why would the odious toad NOT be allowed to crawl back into a Johnson government in the event of Brexit? #shudder

He probably will crawl back in but he's a busted flush he'd just be another IDS and I honestly believe that the next leader of the Tories will NOT be Johnson. The parliamentary party won't allow it for a start.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

The one good thing about this referendum is that it must make UKIP and Farage redundant. Cameron and Osborne are also now discredited and I really can't see Boris getting party-wide support from the Tory party t become leader.

Who do you see as a possible conservative leader post Cameron?

 

[Buzzer]

Who do you see as a possible conservative leader post Cameron?

I don't know but the Tories tend to pick outsiders. Possibly Theresa May, an outside bet would be Priti Patel. God forbid someone like Gove, it's a shame Ruth Davidson is in the Scottish Parliament.

 

[Biscuit]

I don't know but the Tories tend to pick outsiders. Possibly Theresa May, an outside bet would be Priti Patel. God forbid someone like Gove, it's a shame Ruth Davidson is in the Scottish Parliament.

I think you're on the money with May. I think we'll remain, and Johnson will be over.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

He probably will crawl back in but he's a busted flush he'd just be another IDS and I honestly believe that the next leader of the Tories will NOT be Johnson. The parliamentary party won't allow it for a start.

I do not share your faith in the Tory party. Johnson would be seen as the guy who 'won the referendum'. Putting anyone else in charge post-Brexit, when Cameron walks, would be seen as 'undemocratic'. He'd position himself as the man the people voted for (even though the vote has never been about any such thing).

I know you'll write it off as scaremongering, but the very real possibility of a right wing Tory government, with Johnson, Duncan-Smith and Farage in prominent roles, really DOES exist.

And it is terrifying.

 

[1066familyman]

Thanks. Its an excellent piece that chimes with exactly what I've been repeating on this thread. Brexit would be very bad for the working man of Britain.

Hang on a minute. If you're going to print out one article, let's have the other one ( the one I'm particularly interested in as it happens).

What We Need Is A People’s Brexit

JUN 2016 Tuesday 21ST posted by Morning Star in Features


We shouldn’t delude ourselves – the EU is mounting an unprecedented assault on the remnants of our social and workplace rights, write Enrico Tortolano and Ragesh Khakhri


ANTAGONISMS and ambitions within the Tory Party occupy the corporate media’s coverage of the EU referendum. Fear and loathing have poisoned the liberal commentariat: fear of Boris Johnson and a few posh boys, coupled with a bitter loathing of the working class. It’s embarrassing, and unnecessary.
The scenario frightening metropolitan liberals that a Leave victory will deliver power to the racist right is a gross miscalculation.
If Leave win, David Cameron — who helped prop up the old Afrikaner regime in South Africa, let’s not forget — will be ousted and Johnson or Michael Gove will secure the keys to 10 Downing Street.
It will fast turn into their biggest nightmare. The resource intensity of having to seriously engage in detailed negotiations with vexed EU technocrats for months on end over Britain’s exit route, while running a country entirely opposed to any more austerity or cuts alongside a Parliament beyond their control will paralyse the lot of them.
At the same time, powerful campaigning unions like Aslef, BFAWU and the RMT will be relentless in defence of their members and wider society.
That’s why there’s no need for the Alice in Wonderland politics emanating from both the Another Europe is Possible camp and some trade union officials.
The idea of the EU being the promoter and protector of progressive social reforms needs refutation.
The really existing EU is mounting an unprecedented assault on the remnants of the social and workplace rights won post-World War II, as well as dismantling individual states’ collective bargaining powers as a bailout and entry condition.
Those embarking on this misconceived venture have chosen to ignore not only both the institutional and political barriers to achieving such reform, but also the increasing hostility of millions of workers across the continent to the European Union.
Professor Danny Nicol succinctly set out the rationale for why radical reform of the EU is not constitutionally possible: the EU treaties institutionalise key elements of capitalism and neoliberalism.
An important example of this is the monitoring of state assistance to the public sector and allowing private companies to challenge such subsidies on competition grounds.
Another key component is the free movement provisions of the treaties, as interpreted by the Court of Justice in Viking and Ruffert, prohibiting strike action that “disproportionately” obstructs the free movement of goods, services and capital.
Any proposals by a national government to instigate EU laws to allow all member states a choice over public ownership of energy post and rail would require the agreement of all 28 members of the council.
It would take just one national government to veto such proposals from a future Labour government, rendering it unable to carry out even modest commitments on public ownership.
The EU has no glory in its handling of international matters either. In order to deter migrants fleeing war-torn Syria and Iraq, the EU reached a shadowy agreement to repatriate asylum-seekers to Turkey from concentration camps in Greece.
The carrot for the Turkish government was the prospect of visa-free travel in the EU and fast-tracking of its application for EU membership.
The fact that Turkey is characterised by human rights abuses and migrants face being shot there didn’t bother the bureaucrats in Brussels.
They even manipulated the composition of Greek immigration panels, which were unwilling to return vulnerable individuals and families to face an uncertain fate in Turkey.
The harsh treatment of asylum-seekers exposes the darkness that lies at the heart of the EU project, with profit and political expediency riding roughshod over the plight of the vulnerable and destitute.
Historically, the labour movement and Labour leaders such as Clement Attlee and Hugh Gaitskell felt a much greater affinity with the Commonwealth countries than they did to the capitalist Common Market.
During the 1975 referendum, much opinion across the political spectrum of the Parliamentary Labour Party was hostile to remaining in the EEC.
Peter Shore, Barbara Castle, Michael Foot and Tony Benn all campaigned to leave. Membership of the EEC eventually marked a big fault line between left and right and led to the formation of the SDP, which of course led to 18 years of Tory rule.
In 1979 the Labour manifesto declared that it would oppose any move towards turning the EEC into a federation and this position hardened four years later into full withdrawal.
Only in the Kinnock years did the party’s leadership drop its resistance and instead support greater integration.
A speech in 1988 by Jacques Delors at the TUC Congress marked a turning point in the attitude of many previously sceptical trade union leaders.
In the context of the Thatcher government’s anti-trade union laws and the struggles of the miners, his advocacy of a social Europe and partnership with trade unions captured the imagination of many.
But it didn’t withstand critical analysis then, and it still doesn’t today. The much-missed Bob Crow understood this, commenting: “People thought that they could get out of bed one morning and their struggles were over.”
Bob wouldn’t have been worried about Johnson and Gove: they would have been wary of him.
From its inception, New Labour was keen to get into bed with the EU, with Tony Blair himself pushing strongly for Britain to join the euro.
Although this disaster was averted, little changed until the election of Jeremy Corbyn, a renowned critic of the EU and close comrade of Tony Benn.
Corbyn unfortunately rowed back on his promise of a workers’ conference to determine Labour’s position on the referendum.
Unfortunately, the TUC and some union leaders have also shown a distinct reluctance to recognise the implications of the EU’s anti-worker, pro-privatisation policies and practices.
The austerity and misery inflicted by the EU on workers in Greece, Ireland, Spain and beyond has been conveniently ignored.
We’re now at a historical juncture. Polls show that the lower your income the more likely you are to vote Leave.
This means that millions of working-class voters are unrepresented by the mainstream political parties and large chunks of the trade union movement.
The stance and position of those who are supposed to represent labour is at odds with the experience of the working class in Britain as well as the rest of the EU.
Working-class people are experiencing unemployment or insecure jobs, low pay, no pension with little prospect of owning their own home, or living in secure council housing.
It’s nonsense to pretend that the movement of more people into these communities is having no impact on their lives.
Rich Tories have already cut schools and hospitals they use to the bone.
For the metropolitan liberal elite, far removed from such concerns, the prospect of a people’s Brexit simply violates their sense of entitlement and jeopardises the prospect of middle-class benefits that the working class will never see.
Out-of-touch Labour MPs and councillors, door stepping for Remain, are shocked at what their constituents are saying.
Labour councillor Ed Murphy added insult to injury by claiming only the thick will vote to leave.
There is a blind refusal to see that a people’s Brexit provides a genuine opportunity for workers to gain confidence, challenge a weak and divided Tory government and elect a left-wing Labour government empowered to see through its socialist commitments.
If Corbyn had come out relating rejection of the EU to the fight against austerity and cuts he could have led a mass movement of millions that would have taken him to 10 Downing Street.
Nevertheless, there has been a hugely successful collaboration of many different Left Leave organisations through this campaign. Whatever happens on June 23, the challenge will be to build on these strong foundations.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Hang on a minute. If you're going to print out one article, let's have the other one ( the one I'm particularly interested in as it happens).

What We Need Is A People’s Brexit

I discounted it, because it is rubbish - just read what he's written. Vote OUT just to 'smash the Tories in two'. The Tory party will be in disarray whichever way the vote goes, and sadly Labour are not well placed to capitalise. Had Corbyn stuck to Leave that would be no different.

 

[1066familyman]

I discounted it, because it is rubbish - just read what he's written. Vote OUT just to 'smash the Tories in two'. The Tory party will be in disarray whichever way the vote goes, and sadly Labour are not well placed to capitalise. Had Corbyn stuck to Leave that would be no different.

I refer you back to Buzzer's original response to you about your claim that Remain is the only true left wing option for the working class. He has a good point. I don't find myself with much in common with the Guardian reading 'lefties' I've encountered in my life to be honest. From my experience, they talk a good left wing talk but never walk the walk. Very few of them seem to have grown up on a council estate, left school at 16 to work on a building site and have to fill out housing benefit forms every year, whilst working full time.

A quick response for now as I have town sports to go off to now, but I might come back to this debate later as I know I'm bound to be written off as just a commie dreamer.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

At least the Guardian have backed a horse. The Daily Fail seem to be very confused about the whole situation, having printed two separate, fear mongering front pages depending on what side of the Scottish border you live on.,,

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I refer you back to Buzzer's original response to you about your claim that Remain is the only true left wing option for the working class..

But I never said anything of the kind. I never suggested that there was a 'left wing option' on the table. Both Leave or Remain, will still leave us with a capitalist economy, presided over by a right-of-centre Tory government. How is any of that in question? My stance was purely that Remain, and the maintaining of the EU regulations and structures in place, are the better option for the working man, in that they provide a brake to any further-right free market rabbit-hole our Government might try to take us down.

 

[Brovion]

The one good thing about this referendum is that it must make UKIP and Farage redundant. Cameron and Osborne are also now discredited and I really can't see Boris getting party-wide support from the Tory party t become leader.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure. What could happen (stress 'could') is that if we vote 'Remain' UKIP could have a surge similar to that of the SNP when Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. There were 'Reluctant Unionists' in that referendum the same as there are 'Reluctant Remainers' in this one, i.e. people whose hearts yearned for freedom but whose heads told them to look at the financial facts. The SNP were able to say that even though the Union remained they would put Scotland and the Scottish people first, and for every issue they would always ask "What's in it for Scotland?" As all the major parties were pro-Unionist in the subsequent elections the Scots turned to the SNP (the clue's in the name) as the one party they knew would always try and get the best deal for them.

Given that all the major parties in the referendum are for 'Remain' people might turn to UKIP as the only openly pro-British party.. All the others are too Euro-tainted and some (or maybe most) people are worried that if 'Remain' win then the political establishment will give a huge sigh of relief and say "Right, business as usual". People could see UKIP as a brake.

 

[Gwylan]

Hmmm. I'm not so sure. What could happen (stress 'could') is that if we vote 'Remain' UKIP could have a surge similar to that of the SNP when Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. There were 'Reluctant Unionists' in that referendum the same as there are 'Reluctant Remainers' in this one, i.e. people whose hearts yearned for freedom but whose heads told them to look at the financial facts. The SNP were able to say that even though the Union remained they would put Scotland and the Scottish people first, and for every issue they would always ask "What's in it for Scotland?" As all the major parties were pro-Unionist in the subsequent elections the Scots turned to the SNP (the clue's in the name) as the one party they knew would always try and get the best deal for them.

Given that all the major parties in the referendum are for 'Remain' people might turn to UKIP as the only openly pro-British party.. All the others are too Euro-tainted and some (or maybe most) people are worried that if 'Remain' win then the political establishment will give a huge sigh of relief and say "Right, business as usual". People could see UKIP as a brake.

I'm sure that's a plausible scenario. It will however depend on three things. Firstly, there's the reaction of the EU itself - does it carry on as before or does it think, "hang on, the Brits have a point" and start looking to reform itself (and that's as outlandish as people think there's a lot of unhappiness with the EU in other countries.

Secondly, it depends on the Tories - there are lot of anti-EU Tories and if they stand against UKIP, the anti-EU vote will be split. Finally, there's the quality of the candidates for UKIP. Quite honestly, there are some I wouldn't trust to sit on a toilet the right way. It doesn't matter so much at local council level, but they'd be exposed in a GE

 

[looney]

I'm sure that's a plausible scenario. It will however depend on three things. Firstly, there's the reaction of the EU itself - does it carry on as before or does it think, "hang on, the Brits have a point" and start looking to reform itself (and that's as outlandish as people think there's a lot of unhappiness with the EU in other countries.

Secondly, it depends on the Tories - there are lot of anti-EU Tories and if they stand against UKIP, the anti-EU vote will be split. Finally, there's the quality of the candidates for UKIP. Quite honestly, there are some I wouldn't trust to sit on a toilet the right way. It doesn't matter so much at local council level, but they'd be exposed in a GE

I read that Junker said earlier there will be no renegotiation.

 

[1066familyman]

But I never said anything of the kind. I never suggested that there was a 'left wing option' on the table. Both Leave or Remain, will still leave us with a capitalist economy, presided over by a right-of-centre Tory government. How is any of that in question? My stance was purely that Remain, and the maintaining of the EU regulations and structures in place, are the better option for the working man, in that they provide a brake to any further-right free market rabbit-hole our Government might try to take us down.

Yep, apologies, you never said anything about a left wing option, I added that in.

But then that's my point, there is no immediate left wing option. Voting Remian for disenfranchised working class voters who can see the bigger picture isn't really an option either. It might not even be the lesser of two evils. We might be better off taking our chances for Brexit and eventual change at home, although I agree completely that in the short term we'd be in for some even nastier right wing Government.

I am tempted to vote Remain for the obvious reasons of the EU protecting the vulnerable from the right wing extremists at home, and I can see that that mind set feels like the relief of having the Lib Dems put the brakes on the last Tory administration, but that doesn't mean I ever wanted the Lib Dems anywhere near Government. We won a welfare state outside of Europe and plenty of worker's rights before it came along too. What's to say that if we exit and the right wingers here turn the screws even more, as they will obviously seek to do, that that can't finally act as the spark for real change?

Tony Benn would have been brave enough to vote Leave for sound left wing reasons. Corbyn used to always be the same but seems to have bottled it, but Skinner is one prominent example who I trust and is standing firm. I'm more persuaded by the likes of Dennis Skinner than I ever will be by the Guardianistas.