The Auschwitz bookkeeper

[glasfryn]

i listened to one of the people on the radio today and another earlier on tv who were imprisoned in that horrible place...there stories were incredible especially how they have come to terms with there experiences. I suggest the young man who started the thread listen to ..it may help his anger.

2 Different views which i respect:

One of the survivors, Eva Kor, said she forgave Groening, and a picture of her shaking his hand was tweeted earlier this year.

Watching him carefully was a small elderly man with bright eyes. Leon Schwarzbaum was 22 when he was transported to Auschwitz. He told me he is now 94 - the same age as Groening.
He pointed to the tattooed numbers on his arm. "When they punched this on my arm they told me no-one lasts long in Auschwitz."
After the verdict, I saw him again; four years is the right sentence, he said, after all he's an old man.
Can he forgive Oskar Groening, I asked? "No," he replied. "I lost 30 members of my family in Auschwitz."

nearly 1m Jews died it that camp
why can anyone forgive that............OR MORES TO THE POINT WHY SHOULD THEY

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

nearly 1m Jews died it that camp
why can anyone forgive that............OR MORES TO THE POINT WHY SHOULD THEY

Surely if someone who was in that camp chooses to forgive a Nazi officer who staffed the camp, that is their right and their choice. I can't understand it but then I can't get my head around what being kept captive in Auschwitz must have been like.

I do however question the point in jailing a person in their 90's whatever their offence. If you feel remorse for your crime you would have punished yourself over the years anyway. If you feel no remorse then I don't see that being kept in prison for a few years will do to you.

 

[studio150]

The case does raise real issues, as to how far the guilt by association extends. While not using the defence of I was only following orders, the bookkeeper would seem not to have been involved in the killing of the inmates, but was counting money and possessions.

Yes he may have volunteered to join the SS in 1939, but was that a free choice or effectively given the grip on the German nation by the Nazis was it a decision where he was swept along by friends and peers or the fear of seeing how objectors to Nazism were being treated.

While in no way condoning the actions of the Nazis, I just wonder if the prosecution of this elderly man was warranted given the length of time since the end of the war, and the work he undertook at the camp.

It seems his choice was effectively suicide or to keep his head down and accept his position in the Nazi war machine.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Whilst the war was horrific not sure going after a bookkeeper is sensible. I understand why many will want retribution though

 

[hitony]

To my ignorance I don't know much about this individual case, what I do wonder is if he refused to work for the Nazis at the time what would have happened to him, not that this is an excuse for the man, but how easily was it anyone stationed there to walk away from such a evil network?

I feel for the poor souls that died and can't believe how human beings can be so evil, how war can turn people into monsters, we see it still today.

Great post

 

[Bombadier Botty]

The case does raise real issues, as to how far the guilt by association extends. While not using the defence of I was only following orders, the bookkeeper would seem not to have been involved in the killing of the inmates, but was counting money and possessions.

Yes he may have volunteered to join the SS in 1939, but was that a free choice or effectively given the grip on the German nation by the Nazis was it a decision where he was swept along by friends and peers or the fear of seeing how objectors to Nazism were being treated.

While in no way condoning the actions of the Nazis, I just wonder if the prosecution of this elderly man was warranted given the length of time since the end of the war, and the work he undertook at the camp.

It seems his choice was effectively suicide or to keep his head down and accept his position in the Nazi war machine.

A fair and balanced argument, however, if the Allied liberators had just killed every identifiable German who was part of the machine on arrival at each camp, whether accountants, guards, Zyklon B pourers, Irma Grese, whoever, we'd be spared this hand wringing about levels of culpability. Suicide would be more honourable than being involved in the running of a death camp in any capacity.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

i listened to one of the people on the radio today and another earlier on tv who were imprisoned in that horrible place...there stories were incredible especially how they have come to terms with there experiences. I suggest the young man who started the thread listen to ..it may help his anger.

2 Different views which i respect:

One of the survivors, Eva Kor, said she forgave Groening, and a picture of her shaking his hand was tweeted earlier this year.

Watching him carefully was a small elderly man with bright eyes. Leon Schwarzbaum was 22 when he was transported to Auschwitz. He told me he is now 94 - the same age as Groening.
He pointed to the tattooed numbers on his arm. "When they punched this on my arm they told me no-one lasts long in Auschwitz."
After the verdict, I saw him again; four years is the right sentence, he said, after all he's an old man.
Can he forgive Oskar Groening, I asked? "No," he replied. "I lost 30 members of my family in Auschwitz."

The real culprits escaped abroad via there own devices or with the help of Britain/America because it suited our post war plans.
The OP has good intentions but is too young to have anger.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Yes he may have volunteered to join the SS in 1939, but was that a free choice or effectively given the grip on the German nation by the Nazis was it a decision where he was swept along by friends and peers or the fear of seeing how objectors to Nazism were being treated.

You were not forcibly conscripted into the SS, certainly not in 1939. Groening came from a right-wing German Nationalist background and he volunteered because he wanted to emulate his father by joining an elite army unit which would rectify the wrongs he felt Germany had suffered at the end of the First World War.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

The real culprits escaped abroad via there own devices or with the help of Britain/America because it suited our post war plans.
The OP has good intentions but is too young to have anger.

Other than Werner von Braun and his team of rocket scientists I can't think of anybody the UK and US helped to escape. The main escape route was via the Vatican, Franco's Spain and then Latin America.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Surely if someone who was in that camp chooses to forgive a Nazi officer who staffed the camp, that is their right and their choice. I can't understand it but then I can't get my head around what being kept captive in Auschwitz must have been like.

I do however question the point in jailing a person in their 90's whatever their offence. If you feel remorse for your crime you would have punished yourself over the years anyway. If you feel no remorse then I don't see that being kept in prison for a few years will do to you.

Yep thats how i feel...he is no danger to us so surely its there right/choice and not for us to tell them.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Not joining the S.S.would have been a start. More chance of him being sent to the a Russian front then though, which was more or less a death sentence. He got away with it for 70 odd years, probably has kids, grandchildren,etc and lived a good life, so a four year stretch is a bit of a result, really
I think they had to volunteer to serve on the Einstatzgruppen, the units that ran the camps, so he isn't such an innocent as he potrays himself

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Einstatzgruppen had nothing to do with death camps, they followed behind the front line troops and done the dirty work of ethnic cleansing, there were four groups A,B,C,D
a lot of the camp guards were not even German ,a lot of the brutality came from the Jewish sonderkomand
regards
DR

 

[lawros left foot]

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Einstatzgruppen had nothing to do with death camps, they followed behind the front line troops and done the dirty work of ethnic cleansing, there were four groups A,B,C,D
a lot of the camp guards were not even German ,a lot of the brutality came from the Jewish sonderkomand
regards
DR

Obviously I'm not such an expert as you, but, even the Nazis apologists never claimed the Jewish inmates gassed themselves which I imagine was the most brutal actions in the camps I would have thought the Jewish sonderkomand were just carrying out orders, ironic really.

 

[OGH's Libido]

The case does raise real issues, as to how far the guilt by association extends. While not using the defence of I was only following orders, the bookkeeper would seem not to have been involved in the killing of the inmates, but was counting money and possessions.

Yes he may have volunteered to join the SS in 1939, but was that a free choice or effectively given the grip on the German nation by the Nazis was it a decision where he was swept along by friends and peers or the fear of seeing how objectors to Nazism were being treated.

While in no way condoning the actions of the Nazis, I just wonder if the prosecution of this elderly man was warranted given the length of time since the end of the war, and the work he undertook at the camp.

It seems his choice was effectively suicide or to keep his head down and accept his position in the Nazi war machine.

Don't see why, after his guilt has been proven, any of this should be about him. It would be a pretty dangerous road to go down if people thought they could essentially get away with facilitating genocide as long as they can evade prosecution until old age.

And as for his choice at the time, that's a tricky one. But I'd love to know which way he voted in the 30's.

I'm not sure of the facts, but it doesn't look like he chose to appear before a judge when he was a younger man. And as Gunther Grass wrote, the job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open.

 

[Questions]

I suspect once more evidence comes out about Hillsborough peer pressure will be very relevant

I have to say Beach Hut as someone who comes across on here as a person with some savvi that is quite a ridiculous analogy.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

nearly 1m Jews died it that camp
why can anyone forgive that............OR MORES TO THE POINT WHY SHOULD THEY

Why shouldn't they?

I belong to the "what's the point" camp, but also with the feeling that the need for revenge can be very destructive.

 

[Bombadier Botty]

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Einstatzgruppen had nothing to do with death camps, they followed behind the front line troops and done the dirty work of ethnic cleansing, there were four groups A,B,C,D
a lot of the camp guards were not even German ,a lot of the brutality came from the Jewish sonderkomand
regards
DR

The sonderkommando were too busy shovelling gassed bodies into ovens and being liquidated every six months to cause much brutality Das. Beyond that they did mount the only uprising within a death camp.

The Einsatzgruppen were mobile killing units, lot of non-German Eastern Europeans amongst their ranks as you say.

 

[pastafarian]

I belong to the "what's the point" camp, but also with the feeling that the need for revenge can be very destructive.

To join the SS you had to have been a fully paid up member of the National Socialist German Workers Party(millions of Germans were not members)

This bloke was however a member,he made a choice to pay and join the NAZI party,a choice to join the SS and a choice to follow the ideology.This is not some basic member of the Wehrmacht asked to carry out an order which they find wrong.

The bloke is complicit in the crimes carried out at Auschwitz,there must always be consequences to actions

Too old to prosecute some say.........,thats a load of crock,these people must always know they can never hide and they will be hunted down.and its not about revenge .....its about justice

Four year sentence........a luxury for him,the victims of Auschwitz could only have dreamed at such a long sentence to living

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

To join the SS you had to have been a fully paid up member of the National Socialist German Workers Party(millions of Germans were not members)

This bloke was however a member,he made a choice to pay and join the NAZI party,a choice to join the SS and a choice to follow the ideology.This is not some basic member of the Wehrmacht asked to carry out an order which they find wrong.

The bloke is complicit in the crimes carried out at Auschwitz,there must always be consequences to actions

Too old to prosecute some say.........,thats a load of crock,these people must always know they can never hide and they will be hunted down.and its not about revenge .....its about justice

Four year sentence........a luxury for him,the victims of Auschwitz could only have dreamed at such a long sentence to living

I take absolutely all your points, in particular the justice rather than revenge one.
I just can't help thinking it's sad seeing a 94 year old man being helped in to the courtroom on his Zimmer frame.

 

[Captain Sensible]

I take absolutely all your points, in particular the justice rather than revenge one.
I just can't help thinking it's sad seeing a 94 year old man being helped in to the courtroom on his Zimmer frame.

I also don't see the point of convicting this man, apart from to make a lot of people feel better about themselves. The man didn't seem to hide and spoke out repeatedly about his experiences. It's not as though he was actually ordering killings. I think people can have a very black and white thought process when it comes to these guys. There's actually an awful lot of grey. The age old excuse of 'I was only following orders' is not just an excuse and a British joke that somehow condemns the guilt of Nazi's that were on the payroll, but it's also a reason. I can imagine as a young man to get into the SS would have been of great pride to him. But that could have very quickly turning into a rather nasty posting. Did he know what was being planned? What he was part of? The pressure to please those at the top must have been immense. Don't be fooled into thinking all these guys were out to commit genocide. But had he of refused his position, refused to be a book keeper, then what? What would have happened to him? His family? Things aren't always black and white. If the guy had turned out to have been beating prisoners and commiting grotesque crimes in Auschwitz then yes by all means make him pay! But at 94, to convict a book keeper. It just smacks of a bit of self righteousness. The mass murder is something that should never be forgotten or repeated, it would be better to have this man used to talk about his experiences to discourage the younger generation that follow the disgusting far right ideology today. I don't know all the facts about this man, purely I am basing my opinion on news reports.

 

[daveinprague]

We are fairly conditioned to care for elderly, and its not nice to see a man or woman in court at this age, but he was part of an ideology that would happily help equally aged people into gas chambers. He had a good run escaping any justice. Its not as though he will be breaking rocks. He will be in a more than usually secure nursing home.