Teacher Strike

[BadFish]

You maybe right but with the overtime that would mean the private world is working just as long as the teachers normal hours but without all the weekends/bank holidays and 13 weeks holidays. So taking everything into consideration the teachers pay and conditions are not far removed from the private sector and considering most of the private sector are having next to nothing increases and many fear their jobs going the teacher's lot isn't that bad. That's the point I'm making, teachers should be paid well but only what the conditions can afford just like everyone else they are not a special case. Not slagging off teachers at all, many are very good, but they have to realise they're are not alone the majority are in it too.

I agree here but i think this discussion has been flipped somewhat from the sentiments of the opening post. I for one am not going to complain about my salary or the hours i work. Personally i would prefer less holidays, presuming of course that this is reflected in my salary. The reason we get paid less than other professions is that we have more holidays, i accept and understand this.

What I fail to understand is why this is, so often a stick used to beat us and why we have to spend so much time defending ourselves against such accusations.

 

[CheeseRolls]

A statement from a person that knows nothing about the construction industry.
Why do you think that in the past the British tradesmen in my line of work were welcomed into other countries. Why do you think that a Sparks in the USA was welcomed and got their green card because their apprenticeship covered all aspects of the electrical trade and not just a part of it like their electricians are taught.
Why do you think British tradesmen were brought over to work in the Middle East, Holland, Germany etc. I'll tell you why, because the electrical apprenticeship of old was the best and envy of the world. Unfortunately our standards and regs have been dumbed down to fall in line with European regs.
So we come to foreign tradesmen, who work hard but are barely qualified, work on sites as "qualified" sparks for a while, then plumbers on the next job, chippies and so it goes on.
I suspect in your ignorance you do not realise that NOW our JIB (which to enlighten your lack of knowledge is the industries governing body) are sending out teachers to train the Eastern Europeans (which our contributions pay for) and when they get qualified they are guaranteed a job in England where the cost of their training, by US is paid back out of their salaries. In affect WE are paying for them to get jobs over here, which explains why MY trade has not seen an increase in pay since 2004, unlike the teachers eh.
So when you come out with an off the cuff statement remember that around the world OUR construction industry is thought very highly of. Which is why recently most of Dubai (take at look at the construction there eh) was designed, engineered and constructed by those from this country.
Now have a look at how easy it is for proper "time served" British tradesmen to get into and reside in other countries. I think you will find the points system welcomes our qualified tradesmen.

Agreed wild generalisations about whole professions, short on fact and long on prejudice, are more than a little annoying aren't they.

 

[Nibble]

Cheeserolls. Owned.

 

[BadFish]

Agreed wild generalisations about whole professions, short on fact and long on prejudice, are more than a little annoying aren't they.

oooooooooooo i see what you did there, holding a mirror up to the whole debate

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But teacher's seem to be required to defend their occupation more than any other field of work. Especially on NSC.

Quite. Bizarre isn't it.

 

[Soulman]

But teacher's seem to be required to defend their occupation more than any other field of work. Especially on NSC.

With respect BF, i think the reason may be that the Teachers over here threaten strike action on a fairly regular basis. In the present economic climate over here a lot of different careers are either experiencing wage cuts or have had no wage increase for years. I think rightly or wrongly it rubs people up the wrong way at this time.
Do teachers still get a pension based on their salary from the last two years of employment?, if so this is another decent perk that is not taken into account when looking at their rate of pay.

 

[BadFish]

With respect BF, i think the reason may be that the Teachers over here threaten strike action on a fairly regular basis. In the present economic climate over here a lot of different careers are either experiencing wage cuts or have had no wage increase for years. I think rightly or wrongly it rubs people up the wrong way at this time.
Do teachers still get a pension based on their salary from the last two years of employment?, if so this is another decent perk that is not taken into account when looking at their rate of pay.

This distinction of a dislike for teachers who strike does not come across strongly in this thread. Most of it seems to be aimed at teachers in general. I beleive the numbers of teachers who voted to strike was very low so surely in this case it would be better to aim ones ire at the unions, or at least at those teachers who are striking?

 

[Soulman]

This distinction of a dislike for teachers who strike does not come across strongly in this thread. Most of it seems to be aimed at teachers in general. I beleive the numbers of teachers who voted to strike was very low so surely in this case it would be better to aim ones ire at the unions, or at least at those teachers who are striking?

Fair point.
And the pension?

 

[BadFish]

Fair point.
And the pension?

Don't know much about that, so I can't really comment.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Most of it seems to be aimed at teachers in general

And how the hell have we arrived at this position? Successive governments have left the UK a basket case, MPs have been brazenly fiddling tax payers money, financial types got way out of their depth and asked us to bail them out etc etc and a significant portion of NSC just seem to round on teachers. Why? What exactly have they done wrong that singles them out and puts them above the aforementioned?

 

[fork me]

There are plenty of shocking teachers in private schools. Not having to deal with shocking kids would make any teacher's work more productive.

Also private schools have much smaller class sizes which makes a huge difference to the amount of time given per pupil.

 

[BadFish]

And how the hell have we arrived at this position? Successive governments have left the UK a basket case, MPs have been brazenly fiddling tax payers money, financial types got way out of their depth and asked us to bail them out etc etc and a significant portion of NSC just seem to round on teachers. Why? What exactly have they done wrong that singles them out and puts them above the aforementioned?

NSC loves an easy target. Having grounds for their gripes doesn't really matter. Shame reason they also round on the unemployed in the place of those you mention.

 

[fork me]

Inset days ARE school holidays so by definition they ALWAYS take place during school holidays.

Strange how my daughter had one this last term on a Monday DURING the term !

What difference does that make?? That day is still a school holiday.

Legislation states the number of days a year children must be in school. The number of days that teachers are contracted to work is higher than this. Those are the INSET days. It isn't rocket science.

 

[fork me]

Just done a little research (I believe its called table top research these days) and it appears from various surveys that teachers "diary" hours have steadily been reducing over the last decade and now a secondary school teacher now works on average 50 hours per week including home working for their contracted weeks. The average secondary teacher's salary it appears is £35000 so 50hoursx39weeks/35000= £17.95/hours worked. That seems like a well paid job to me.

Your table top research is inaccurate for many reasons:

1) You have not taken into account the work (marking, preperation etc) done during the holidays.
2) You have used an average salary which takes into account the much bigger salaries of senior management and heads, the median salaray is even lower than this.
3) The people on the salary you have used as you average would be those in middle management. Their extra responibilities normally mean them working well over the average hours. I was in middle management in a state school before I emigrated. (just 4 years ago) and it was very rare that I worked as few as 50 hours. I was in school by 8 in the morning, I rarely left before 6 and I virtually always took work home with me.

Secondly, even if you're figures WERE correct. Teaching is a professional job that requires a full degree plus an extra year. I was close to the average you quoted after 11 years in teaching, 4 of those in middle management. For a post graduate profession with that level of experience and responisibilty the figure YOU'VE quoted is not a high wage.

 

[fork me]

Bottom line is that you just look at English kids then compare them to Eastern European (at least 2 languages plus a sense of maturity),

Sorry, but you're clueless. I now work in an nternational school. We have kids that have been through the states schools of various countries. Most of the kids we get from Eastern European state schools have little English, we have to teach it to them. Eastern European adults have good English because they are self taught, they have to be English is the language you need for international commerce. Most English adults DON'T know a second language for exactly the same reason.

Here in Cyprus the majority of the waitresses and barmaids in the pubs I go to are Eastern European, many of them have University degrees. The ones with degrees tend to be working here to improve their English so they can work elsewhere.

 

[fork me]

Look to the students in Asia, they are your competitors.

Yup, how mentioned long school holidays as something thats dated.

One of the most successful Asian countries in terms of education is Singapore. They only get 4 weeks off in the simmer (all of June), but they get another 6 weeks in the winter (from half way through November until the end of December). They get two other week long holidays as well. 12 weeks in total, pretty similar to the UK. http://portalseven.com/calendar/Holidays_Singapore.jsp#page=schoolHolidays

China? This year their summer school holiday started on June 7th and doesn't end until August 12th. A massive 9 weeks. They also get holidays at other times of the year. http://www.bank-holidays.com/holidays_2013_40.htm

Here in Cyprus kids break up late June and go back early September. They get about 10 weeks for their summer break.

This onld chestnut that the summer holiday is "historical" s nonsense, you won't find many countries that have shorter than us, you'll find a few, but there are a lot more that have longer holidays.

 

[McSeagull]

But teacher's seem to be required to defend their occupation more than any other field of work. Especially on NSC.

Unnecessary apostrophe - see me!

 

[fork me]

My last year with BA as an licensed engineer (not in management) was just over £32000 this included shift pay (working bank holidays etc) that was in 2001, I have spoken with a friend who is still there and he is now on £36000. I haven't included overtime in that but its for a basic 37.5 hour week (1 hour each day for lunch breaks are unpaid!) 28 days holiday.

So, in your profession someone who is NOT management gets paid more than someone in teaching who IS in management, and they can earn overtime on top of that whereas teachers do any extra hours (ckubs, school trips etc) for free.

Way to shoot your own argument down in flames.

 

[Soulman]

And how the hell have we arrived at this position? Successive governments have left the UK a basket case, MPs have been brazenly fiddling tax payers money, financial types got way out of their depth and asked us to bail them out etc etc and a significant portion of NSC just seem to round on teachers. Why? What exactly have they done wrong that singles them out and puts them above the aforementioned?

I can't disagree with most of your post. The reason that successive governments and banks get away with it is because they make the rules and they vote on the changes and there is bugger all we can do about it.
The teachers have done nothing wrong except every time the country is going through hard financial times, every time most other professions are either seeing stagnant pay rises or wages cut, the teachers want to strike for more. It seems to happen every time when most are tightening their belts, so obviously it is not a popular message to most others.
As a teacher on this thread stated, if those that think teaching is easy then they could train to be a teacher and change profession. Similarly if teachers think they are hard done by and need to keep threatening strike action, then they are free to try another job also.

 

[Soulman]

Ok then. Here is a 2011 list of pay.

My trade is number 119 on the list, no holiday pay, no 13weeks holiday, no pension, no sick pay etc
Teachers are numbers 27, 62, 80, 84. Even special needs teachers who only do a one day a week 2 year course come in at number 74, and the holidays, pension and sick pay apply to all.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...2011-Tables-official-figures-UK-salaries.html

Oh and Construction trades come in at 221.......