Star Wars: The Force Awakens - with Spoilers - discussion thread

[Triggaaar]

So Han will come back as a ghost

No, you can't do that unless you're strong with the force.

There are some comments in this thread:

http://www.northstandchat.com/showt...POILERS!-Official-Star-Wars-discussion-thread

My bad, didn't know that was there.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Who thinks that Rey is Lukes daughter?

 

[Hampster Gull]

On that subject, it is said of comics and this type of thing that no one is dead until you at least have a dead body, and we didn't see Han die. He could have landed on Captain Phasma and been rescued, but that would be annoying, and I don't think that's the intention at all.

I agree. I think it was meant to engender hatred towards Jnr

 

[Acker79]

My bad, didn't know that was there.

It was several pages back (even with 50 threads a page), so I'm not surprised it was missed. Just figured I'd link it for the comments on there

Who thinks that Rey is Lukes daughter?

I don't know. On the one hand, his light sabre called to her, and there was the talk of it being luke's and his father's before him suggesting a direct lineage in support of this theory.

But, there's just something about a Jedi Knight being a father that is a little off - I know Anakin was one, but he was a bad jedi knight who didn't follow the rules, luke is supposed to be a good one. I suppose the lack of a love interest for him in the original trilogy just makes it hard to think of him having a relationship.

Which would lead to one alternative - she is Han and Leia's daughter - Han offered her a job, on their return after Han's death, Leia sought out Rey, not Chewie. You then have the potential story of Rey and Kylo Ren brother/sister rivalry and redemption story.

It's worth noting that one of those flashback memory scenes when Rey touches the light sabre, sees her on a battlefield surrounded by the Knights of Ren, suggesting they played a part in removing her from where she was as a young child and dumping her on Jakku.

Of course, it could be that she isn't related to them at all, she is this trilogy's Anakin - a new Jedi with particularly strong force, and the light sabre was drawn to her power - she had remarkable control and was able to fight off Kylo Ren without any apparent training.

 

[Acker79]

Can the Force not bring him back?

Well, the possibility that the force could bring people back from the dead was mentioned by Senator Palpatine when he told the story of the Sith to Anakin. I had always got the impression he was talking about how he was turned, suggesting he turned on his Sith master, but it could just have been a Sith history lesson.

There's been suggestions that perhaps Snoke is Palpatine's Sith master - that he has been in the background the whole time.

 

[Acker79]

I was a little concerned on learning Kylo Ren was played by Adam Driver, because I thought I would struggle to not think of this:



But he was actually really good.

 

[Wozza]

Who thinks that Rey is Lukes daughter?

Everyone.

 

[Wozza]

I wonder how much Mark Hamill got for his appearance?

I imagine his fee covers two or more movies.

I think it's a shame we knew he was in this one. Could have been a great surprise.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Er, you're not supposed to open the thread if you haven't seen the film. I gave fair warning, and didn't give away anything in the opening post.

Not complaining. Thought I could handle the spoilers. I was wrong.

 

[Triggaaar]

Who thinks that Rey is Lukes daughter?

99% of those who watched. The argument against:
She didn't know her dad's name was Luke. Luke ran away when Ben went bad, and Rey should have known her father.
Han Solo didn't give anything away, and he would have known.

Arguments for:
Leia and Han only had one child, and he's a rotten egg, so it would make sense for their to be a good Skywalker.
Her family left Jakku, but we didn't see who they were, suggesting it was Luke (ie, why not show them if they were just average people).
Luke's (Anakin's) lightsabre was calling to her, and she had flashbacks when she saw it.
She is very strong with the force, despite an apparent lack of training, so she's probably the offspring of someone powerful.
She alone went to find Luke. Why didn't Luke's sister go? Leia may have know who she was even if Hans didn't seem to.

I agree. I think it was meant to engender hatred towards Jnr

It was in a fitting place, but could have been done better.

It was several pages back (even with 50 threads a page), so I'm not surprised it was missed. Just figured I'd link it for the comments on there

Yeah mods could merge.

But, there's just something about a Jedi Knight being a father that is a little off - I know Anakin was one, but he was a bad jedi knight who didn't follow the rules, luke is supposed to be a good one. I suppose the lack of a love interest for him in the original trilogy just makes it hard to think of him having a relationship.

I disagree, he was a little busy in the originals, and he had some family shit to deal with. 20 years later, it's not so hard to imagine he could find love, and while we know it goes against the rules, Luke was not brought up as a Jedi, with a Master as Anakin was, so I'm not sure it's a rule that was imposed on him. And even if it was, we know Luke ignores Yoda to go and face Vader. Luke is good inside, but that doesn't mean he follows rules.

Which would lead to one alternative - she is Han and Leia's daughter - Han offered her a job, on their return after Han's death, Leia sought out Rey, not Chewie.

She could have done that for her niece too. Han and Leia met for the first time in years, and spoke about getting their son back. They never said a word about a daughter, which would just be weird if they had one. Regardless, Leia should have hugged Chewie, he was Han's buddy for life.

You then have the potential story of Rey and Kylo Ren brother/sister rivalry and redemption story.

You have that even if they're just cousins.

It's worth noting that one of those flashback memory scenes when Rey touches the light sabre, sees her on a battlefield surrounded by the Knights of Ren, suggesting they played a part in removing her from where she was as a young child and dumping her on Jakku.

Yep, that does suggest she is a Skywalker.

Of course, it could be that she isn't related to them at all, she is this trilogy's Anakin - a new Jedi with particularly strong force, and the light sabre was drawn to her power

I should point out that Anakin was not a new Jedi, he was created by Palpatine's master. Normal people give birth to children who are force sensitive, who can be trained, but Anakin, Luke, and presumably Rey are a lot more than force sensitive.

she had remarkable control and was able to fight off Kylo Ren without any apparent training.

She was of course skilled with her staff, and Kylo Ren was injured (Chewie shot him), but he had used Force Stun and Force Push on her and I'd have liked to see him try that again, only for her to try and resist. It was weird how he was losing the sabre duel and didn't try what had worked before. Finn did better against and injured Kylo Ren than I'd have liked - he had no training with a staff, so I'd have liked him to lose more quickly. Like Han Solo's effort against Darth Vader.

 

[Hampster Gull]

99% of those who watched. The argument against:
She didn't know her dad's name was Luke. Luke ran away when Ben went bad, and Rey should have known her father.
Han Solo didn't give anything away, and he would have known.

Arguments for:
Leia and Han only had one child, and he's a rotten egg, so it would make sense for their to be a good Skywalker.
Her family left Jakku, but we didn't see who they were, suggesting it was Luke (ie, why not show them if they were just average people).
Luke's (Anakin's) lightsabre was calling to her, and she had flashbacks when she saw it.
She is very strong with the force, despite an apparent lack of training, so she's probably the offspring of someone powerful.
She alone went to find Luke. Why didn't Luke's sister go? Leia may have know who she was even if Hans didn't seem to.

It was in a fitting place, but could have been done better.

Yeah mods could merge.

I disagree, he was a little busy in the originals, and he had some family shit to deal with. 20 years later, it's not so hard to imagine he could find love, and while we know it goes against the rules, Luke was not brought up as a Jedi, with a Master as Anakin was, so I'm not sure it's a rule that was imposed on him. And even if it was, we know Luke ignores Yoda to go and face Vader. Luke is good inside, but that doesn't mean he follows rules.

She could have done that for her niece too. Han and Leia met for the first time in years, and spoke about getting their son back. They never said a word about a daughter, which would just be weird if they had one. Regardless, Leia should have hugged Chewie, he was Han's buddy for life.
You have that even if they're just cousins.

Yep, that does suggest she is a Skywalker.

I should point out that Anakin was not a new Jedi, he was created by Palpatine's master. Normal people give birth to children who are force sensitive, who can be trained, but Anakin, Luke, and presumably Rey are a lot more than force sensitive.

She was of course skilled with her staff, and Kylo Ren was injured (Chewie shot him), but he had used Force Stun and Force Push on her and I'd have liked to see him try that again, only for her to try and resist. It was weird how he was losing the sabre duel and didn't try what had worked before. Finn did better against and injured Kylo Ren than I'd have liked - he had no training with a staff, so I'd have liked him to lose more quickly. Like Han Solo's effort against Darth Vader.

Trig, i take it you like Star Wars

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Loved it - Solos death made it.

I think they have to be careful if they have Rey bein related to Ben - that would basically be the same story as the orginal trilogy.

Family members on different sides of the force trying to get each other to switch.

 

[Acker79]

You have that even if they're just cousins.

But it's not nearly as strong.

I should point out that Anakin was not a new Jedi, he was created by Palpatine's master. Normal people give birth to children who are force sensitive, who can be trained, but Anakin, Luke, and presumably Rey are a lot more than force sensitive.

Where does this information come from? I believe there has been a split in what is cannon - The prequel trilogy, clone wars series of cartoons, original trilogy and new comic, video games are the 'new universe' and previous books, comics, games etc, are part of a 'legend universe'.

She was of course skilled with her staff, and Kylo Ren was injured (Chewie shot him), but he had used Force Stun and Force Push on her and I'd have liked to see him try that again, only for her to try and resist. It was weird how he was losing the sabre duel and didn't try what had worked before. Finn did better against and injured Kylo Ren than I'd have liked - he had no training with a staff, so I'd have liked him to lose more quickly. Like Han Solo's effort against Darth Vader.

I was considering more the interrogation scene where she used the force to fight him off, use the jedi mind trick to escape, and I suppose a little bit about her summoning Luke's sabre when Ren was trying to summon it himself more than her ability to fight with a weapon.

 

[Triggaaar]

Well, the possibility that the force could bring people back from the dead was mentioned by Senator Palpatine when he told the story of the Sith to Anakin. I had always got the impression he was talking about how he was turned, suggesting he turned on his Sith master, but it could just have been a Sith history lesson.

There's been suggestions that perhaps Snoke is Palpatine's Sith master - that he has been in the background the whole time.

Palpatine told Anakin of Darth Plagueis. He said how he created life (Anakin). He then said that Plagueis's apprentice (Palpetine) killed him in his sleep. So I don't see how he could be Palpetine's master.

Not complaining. Thought I could handle the spoilers. I was wrong.

Stop reading, and go watch. It's on now, at a cinema near you.

Trig, i take it you like Star Wars

I can take it or leave it.


I even like the prequels, despite the fact they're poorly made and not faithful to the originals.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I'd like to use the force on Daisy Ridley.

P.s. what did everyone else think of Kylo Ren taking his helmet off? Positive or negative move?

 

[Triggaaar]

But it's not nearly as strong.

No, but the positives outweigh the negatives. Luke having a powerful daughter is a great option.

Where does this information come from? I believe there has been a split in what is cannon

Revenge of the Sith: "Darth Plagueis was a dark lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life."

I was considering more the interrogation scene where she used the force to fight him off, use the jedi mind trick to escape, and I suppose a little bit about her summoning Luke's sabre when Ren was trying to summon it himself more than her ability to fight with a weapon.

Her Jedi mind trick is difficult to understand - how would she even think of doing that? Possible explanation to follow...
Resisting Kylo Ren when he was interrogating her was much better IMO. He read her mind and knew she'd seen the map. He was trying to read her mind more, and she was just trying to be strong and stop him, she didn't know why or how, she was just resisting / fighting. I thought that was excellent and believable.
And her summoning Luke's sabre - by then she knew about the force - she'd seen what Ren could do to her (Force Stun, Force Push, reading her mind), she'd been told by Han Solo that it was all true, she'd used the force to trick the stormtrooper and to read Ren's mind - and she could see Ren trying to get the sabre. And if she's Luke's daughter, she might be more naturally powerful than the offspring of Leia.

But had she had no experience of the Force before the movie, or had Luke taught her a little when she was very young, before then making her forget about it?

I'd like to use the force on Daisy Ridley.

She is lovely.

P.s. what did everyone else think of Kylo Ren taking his helmet off? Positive or negative move?

Positive. He doesn't need the mask, as Vader did, he wears it because he wants to be like Vader. There's no reason he shouldn't wear it and I think Adam Driver looks and sounds great as Kylo Ren. And when he killed his father, he wasn't hiding behind a mask, he was saying 'this is me'.

 

[Acker79]

Palpatine told Anakin of Darth Plagueis. He said how he created life (Anakin). He then said that Plagueis's apprentice (Palpetine) killed him in his sleep. So I don't see how he could be Palpetine's master.

I'd need to watch it again to see, but your description of the scene doesn't seem to be something that is set in stone, more of a possible allusion. To be honest, this is the first I've ever heard that Palpatine made Anakin, and a quick google search seems to suggest this is more a fan theory than canon fact.

As for the death thing, it goes back to what was said before about comic book deaths: no body, no death. Did he fake his death to fool Palpatine? Did Palpatine lie under instruction? Did Plagueis conquer death as he was trying to do?


Another factor in my reluctance to fully embrace rey = luke jr is that it is too obvious. I do accept that it is, based on all we know so far, the most likely answer, I just can't help feeling like we should expect more.

Only German speaking people really expected Vader to be Luke's father, it was a big surprise for most other people. It is held up as one of the most famous examples of a twist in movie history. Luke telling Rey he's her father is just so obvious it would feel like a major let down. Especially after this film, I think, surprised most people with the revelation that Kylo Ren was Han and Leia's son.

Perhaps she is, instead, the life Plagueis is rumoured to have created (we keep hearing about light turning dark with Palpatine, Anakin, attempts to turn luke, Kylo Ren, what about a Sith creation turning/being light as a counter point and a theme of self-determination)? Though, I don't know that that would work as a twist for the average fan. I've watched the prequel trilogy a few times and missed that, so it might be too obscure for most casual fans who haven't watched them as often.

P.s. what did everyone else think of Kylo Ren taking his helmet off? Positive or negative move?

My initial reaction was that it took a bit of the mystique away from the character. Especially given the lack of scarring or disfigurement. Taking off the mask and seeing a young boy's face seemed a little jarring to me.

 

[Acker79]

Another question:

In the scene where we see Kylo Ren talking to Vader's mask, we only see the mask after the conversation as ended. The part of the conversation we hear is Kylo asking grandfather to again show him the power of the dark side.

What's the deal with that? Is there a Ghost Vader talking to kylo? is it a trick from Snoke or someone else? Is he just a little nuts?

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Another question:

In the scene where we see Kylo Ren talking to Vader's mask, we only see the mask after the conversation as ended. The part of the conversation we hear is Kylo asking grandfather to again show him the power of the dark side.

What's the deal with that? Is there a Ghost Vader talking to kylo? is it a trick from Snoke or someone else? Is he just a little nuts?

I just thought he was nuts. They may explain it in later films as something different mind.

And I'm with you on the lack of mystique. I was gripped by him until he took his mask off - it killed the second half of the buzz film for me as I just couldn't take him seriously.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'd need to watch it again to see, but your description of the scene doesn't seem to be something that is set in stone, more of a possible allusion. To be honest, this is the first I've ever heard that Palpatine made Anakin, and a quick google search seems to suggest this is more a fan theory than canon fact.

I wasn't saying Palaptine made him, but Plagueis. I don't watch anything that's not canon, and I haven't read anything from anyone else, it's just what I took from the movies. It's pretty bloody clear to me that Palpatine is saying Anakin was created by Plagueis. You don't need my description, you can read the quote I posted.

As for the death thing, it goes back to what was said before about comic book deaths: no body, no death. Did he fake his death to fool Palpatine? Did Palpatine lie under instruction? Did Plagueis conquer death as he was trying to do?

The way Palpatine worded it, he can't have been fooled about Plagueis's death, as Palapatine was the orchestrator. He also said it proudly, with glee, making it fairly clear he was the one to kill Plagueis.

While he could have lied under instruction, he wouldn't have lied with such pride and glee. And we saw 6 movies with Palpetine, he took over the galaxy and ruled it. It seems unlikely he was under the instuction of anyone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if Snook is Plaguis, but I don't know how it would be explained.

Another factor in my reluctance to fully embrace rey = luke jr is that it is too obvious. I do accept that it is, based on all we know so far, the most likely answer, I just can't help feeling like we should expect more.

Yep, it's not beyond possibility.

Only German speaking people really expected Vader to be Luke's father, it was a big surprise for most other people. It is held up as one of the most famous examples of a twist in movie history.

It's easy to forget how surprising that was, since Obiwan had told Luke his father had been murdered.

Luke telling Rey he's her father is just so obvious it would feel like a major let down.

Just because Empire had a now infamous plot twist, doesn't mean this episode has to have one too. There's some criticism of repetition (death star number 3 and counting, father and son version 2 etc) already, there doesn't need to be another surprise - and to be honest, for it to be as surprising as Vader being Luke's father, Rey's father would have to be Chewie.

Especially after this film, I think, surprised most people with the revelation that Kylo Ren was Han and Leia's son.

I'm not sure what you're saying - I don't think that was a surprise at all. Jedi don't grow on trees.

Perhaps she is, instead, the life Plagueis is rumoured to have created (we keep hearing about light turning dark with Palpatine, Anakin, attempts to turn luke, Kylo Ren, what about a Sith creation turning/being light as a counter point and a theme of self-determination)?

Palpetine told this tale to a young Anakin, before Luke was born, so obviously Rey wasn't the life created. If the life created wasn't Anakin, then it could be one of Rey's ancestors (which I think it is, just that it's Anakin). I've no problem with dark turning light. Vader turned to the light. I'm not sure Palpatine turned to the dark, he was always dark as far as the movies show, and he wasn't a jedi before that.

Kylo Ren could turn to the light, he already has conflict. That could be less likely now that he's killed Solo, but Vader had been pretty naughty too.

Though, I don't know that that would work as a twist for the average fan. I've watched the prequel trilogy a few times and missed that, so it might be too obscure for most casual fans who haven't watched them as often.

I'm sure they'd like to have some twists, but I hope they don't try and force them in for the sake of it.

My initial reaction was that it took a bit of the mystique away from the character. Especially given the lack of scarring or disfigurement. Taking off the mask and seeing a young boy's face seemed a little jarring to me.

I was the opposite. Why would he be disfigured? And I like the fact that even without the mask his voice fits the part. I don't think we need extra mystic, it's better to have a human element to the character, and man who is trying to be one thing, but has good in him. He's not Vader, he doesn't need the mask, so keeping it on all the time would be unnecessary.

Another question:

In the scene where we see Kylo Ren talking to Vader's mask, we only see the mask after the conversation as ended. The part of the conversation we hear is Kylo asking grandfather to again show him the power of the dark side.

What's the deal with that? Is there a Ghost Vader talking to kylo? is it a trick from Snoke or someone else? Is he just a little nuts?

I don't think it's a trick. Don't know about a force ghost, that's not really necessary. He looks up to Vader and wants to emulate him. He knows his own shortcomings and wants to be stronger. I think it's simply like when we have a little word with ourselves, say a little preyer.

And I'm with you on the lack of mystique. I was gripped by him until he took his mask off - it killed the second half of the buzz film for me as I just couldn't take him seriously.

Weird. Have you seen Adam Driver in anything before?