st georges day march for ENGLAND in brighton

[Nibble]

As all official documents recognise, identity is self-defined: a black man, when filling in the census form, for example, can describe himself as "white British" if he so wishes. It follows, then, that one can define one's identity as an English man or woman according to certain racial and cultural characteristics. An influx of people with different racial and cultural characteristics will cause unease within the host community, most of the members of which hold to a particular, established view of what it means to be English. The views of people who feel uneasy - threatened, even - by successive waves of uncontrolled immigration should be respected and not dismissed. Their views are as worthy of respect as are anyone else's. People who hold such views - on either side of the political spectrum: mass immigration concerns people on both Left and Right - simply want to keep their country recognisably the same, which is a perfectly natural impulse.

A well written but essentially flawed argument.

 

[User removed 4]

As all official documents recognise, identity is self-defined: a black man, when filling in the census form, for example, can describe himself as "white British" if he so wishes. It follows, then, that one can define one's identity as an English man or woman according to certain racial and cultural characteristics. An influx of people with different racial and cultural characteristics will cause unease within the host community, most of the members of which hold to a particular, established view of what it means to be English. The views of people who feel uneasy - threatened, even - by successive waves of uncontrolled immigration should be respected and not dismissed. Their views are as worthy of respect as are anyone else's. People who hold such views - on either side of the political spectrum: mass immigration concerns people on both Left and Right - simply want to keep their country recognisably the same, which is a perfectly natural impulse.

well put.

 

[User removed 4]

A well written but essentially flawed argument.

the flaws are ?

 

[Nibble]

the flaws are ?

Hmm, another question.

The flaws are that the only people who seem to be upset by immigration are of a certain ilk. I am concerned about immigration but don't act like an idiot to express myself.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The difference between the starter of this thread and his cronies and say, yer typical Scottish, Irish or Welsh celebration of their respective national Saints day, is in the execution. There's nothing celebratory about it. It's all about joyless confrontation. Marching and speechifying and reclaiming the streets from Johnny Foreigner. It's all about being a victim of some imagined unfair treatment. There always has to be an enemy. Its a bit crap really.

 

[Nibble]

The difference between the starter of this thread and his cronies and say, yer typical Scottish, Irish or Welsh celebration of their respective national Saints day, is in the execution. There's nothing celebratory about it. It's all about confrontation. Marching and speechifying and reclaiming the streets from Johnny Foreigner. It's all about being a victim of some imagined unfair treatment. There always has to be an enemy. Its a bit crap really.

spot on

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

A well written but essentially flawed argument.

Nobble....where is the difference between Bushy responding to posts with questions and you responding to posts with statements you choose not to back up ?

 

[Nibble]

Nobble....where is the difference between Bushy responding to posts with questions and you responding to posts with statements you choose not to back up ?

Well the difference is that one is somebody responding with questions and one is me not backing up my arguments.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Well the difference is that one is somebody responding with questions and one is me not backing up my arguments.

poor effort Nubbs

 

[readingstockport]

The difference between the starter of this thread and his cronies and say, yer typical Scottish, Irish or Welsh celebration of their respective national Saints day, is in the execution. There's nothing celebratory about it. It's all about joyless confrontation. Marching and speechifying and reclaiming the streets from Johnny Foreigner. It's all about being a victim of some imagined unfair treatment. There always has to be an enemy. Its a bit crap really.

Nail, hammer, head.

 

[Nibble]

poor effort Nubbs

Well I did back up my argument when asked so not that poor eh?

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Apropos of nothing (sorry for using foreign words) here is a list of immigration to the UK when it was last calculated from the 2001 census. We call these facts.

Between 1991 and 2001 around 1.1m people who were born abroad moved to the UK making the total number of people born abroad but living in the UK 4m or so.

Republic of Ireland: 494,850
India: 466,416
Pakistan: 320,767
Germany: 262,276
Caribbean: 254,740
USA: 155,030
Bangladesh: 154,201
South Africa: 140,201
Kenya: 129,356
Italy: 107,002

What is noticeable about this list for me is that around one in nine of the immigrants are from Ireland. Hard to make a rational case for keeping them out.

Around 5% were from Germany - but the vast majority of these were children born to people in the British Armed Forces (so showing up as born abroad).

Those two groups alone more or less equal the total number of 'Pakis' (assuming they are defined as anyone from the sub-continent) who have moved to this country.

The US, South Africa and South America make up a very large percentage, as do those from Western Europe (see Italy at 10th on the list by itself).

So to clarify
- more 'Brits born abroad' and Irish than 'Pakis' immigrating.
- massive proportion of immigrants coming from the developed 'first' world.
- around 6% of UK population born abroad (v. 9% in Germany and Austria, 12% in the US, 24% for Australia for example)

 

[readingstockport]

the flaws are ?

The esential flaw starts with this statement

"It follows, then, that one can define one's identity as an English man or woman according to certain racial and cultural characteristics"

because it then takes that as accepted fact. It is not. I indentify myself as 'english' because I was born in England, not because I am white. Once that flawed assumption is disgarded then the entire argument fails abysmally.

 

[Mellotron]

I don't expect any response from the far right after that barrage of FACTS.

 

[Nibble]

The esential flaw starts with this statement

"It follows, then, that one can define one's identity as an English man or woman according to certain racial and cultural characteristics"

because it then takes that as accepted fact. It is not. I indentify myself as 'english' because I was born in England, not because I am white. Once that flawed assumption is disgarded then the entire argument fails abysmally.

cheers.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

cheers.

oh, I see, that is what you were trying to explain then ? Did you not quite know how to put it into words ?.....oh sorry, questions!

 

[readingstockport]

So what is it about England you love Rusthall?

Now notice, I asked what you love, not what you dilsike so no silly rants about immigration.

Tell me, what is it about English culture that I should be celebrating and why I need to be a right wing bigot in order to do so?

 

[Nibble]

oh, I see, that is what you were trying to explain then ? Did you not quite know how to put it into words ?.....oh sorry, questions!

No I was pointing out a different flaw but I prefer the other one, it is much more fundamental.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Apropos of nothing (sorry for using foreign words) here is a list of immigration to the UK when it was last calculated from the 2001 census. We call these facts.

Between 1991 and 2001 around 1.1m people who were born abroad moved to the UK making the total number of people born abroad but living in the UK 4m or so.

Republic of Ireland: 494,850
India: 466,416
Pakistan: 320,767
Germany: 262,276
Caribbean: 254,740
USA: 155,030
Bangladesh: 154,201
South Africa: 140,201
Kenya: 129,356
Italy: 107,002

)

Yeah, I've noticed whilst walking around London just how rammed it is with Irish and German people. Whole areas where entire streets are full of shops selling Bratwurst, Saurkraut,Colcannon and Daniel O Donnell CD's.

These fgures point to one thing, It would appear that the German, Irish American and Italian migrants are more evenly spread around the UK and could therefore be viewed as having "integrated" wheras migrants from SE Asia tend to congregate with others from their native communities which makes them a target for British nationalists living in those areas who think they are being overrun.

additionally I suspect that Asian Migrants are more likely to encourage their extended families to join them once here which not many Young Europeans and North Americans moving to Britain would feel the need to do.

Cultural differences I reckon.

 

[Mellotron]

Yeah, I've noticed whilst walking around London just how rammed it is with Irish and German people. Whole areas where entire streets are full of shops selling Bratwurst, Saurkraut,Colcannon and Daniel O Donnell CD's.

These fgures point to one thing, It would appear that the German, Irish American and Italian migrants are more evenly spread around the UK and could therefore be viewed as having "integrated" wheras migrants from SE Asia tend to congregate with others from their native communities which makes them a target for British nationalists living in those areas who think they are being overrun.

additionally I suspect that Asian Migrants are more likely to encourage their extended families to join them once here which not many Young Europeans and North Americans moving to Britain would feel the need to do.

Cultural differences I reckon.

Still don't see the problem.