Spanish tippy tappy gets PULVERISED

[Goldstone Rapper]

In 1953 against the mighty Magyars we played in a 1, 2,3.5 standard English football line up as it was the only one we knew in those days

Goalkeeper, Right Back Left Back Right Half Centre Half Left Half, Right wing inside right centre forward inside left and left winger.numbered in that order 1 -11.

We did NOT play 2-3-5 against the Hungarians. Herbert Chapman's Arsenal had pioneered the W-M formation (3-2-2-3) involving a withdrawn centre-half, as a result of the change in the offside law in the 1920s. The W-M formation was still in vogue in the 1950s and is what England played that day. Poor Harry Johnston, the England number 5, didn't know what to do with the Hungarian number 9 causing havoc in midfield. If he pushed up, it left a massive gap in the middle of the defence. If he didn't push up, Hidegkuti continued to pull the strings unhindered.

 

[BensGrandad]

I am not so sure that Harry johnstone ever played no 5 in his life he was a left half no 6 age is catching up with yours or my memory. Neil Fanklin was No 5 in 1950 and then succeeded by Billy Wright. The 6-3 defeat by Hungary brought about the change in formation to play 'the continental way' and also new style football boots.

Walter Winterbottom chose not to man mark Hidegcutti and paid the price.

 

[Tubby-McFat-Fuc]

But Spain had 64% possession, so must have been the better side!!!!.......... or have we been lied to for the last three years!!

Thankfully it seems the fad that was possession football and bugger all entertainment may be on its way out.

Lets how Sami stick two up top next season. We just might just get something entertaining to watch at last!

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Harry johnstone never played no 5 in his life he was a left half no 6 age is catching up with your memory. Neil Fanklin was No 5 in 1050 and then succeeded by Billy Wright. The 6=3 defeat by Hungary brought about the change in formation to play 'the continental way' and also new style football boots.

Well, Wikipedia seems quite definite that Harry Johnston was number five:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_England_v_Hungary_football_match

And the Guardian is pretty sure Johnston was playing as a centre-half
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2002/feb/20/guardianobituaries.brianglanville

The 6-3 defeat brought about no immediate change. It was dismissed as a fluke by some. England played exactly the same 3-2-2-3 formation for the return game in 1954 (with Syd Owen taking Johnston's place), and with the same old-fashioned boots and shirts, and were whipped 7-1.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Walter Winterbottom chose not to man mark Hidegcutti and paid the price.

The problem was that English players were welded to the idea that a number 5's direct opponent was the number 9. Had Johnston man-marked Hidegkuti he would have wondered into midfield for most of the game and left a yawning gap in the centre of defence for the likes of Kocsis and Puskas to come into.

 

[BensGrandad]

Was this not what made Man City develop the Revie plan with 3 players wearing no 9 shirts and Revie dropping deep and the others wandering all over the field.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Was this not what made Man City develop the Revie plan with 3 players wearing no 9 shirts and Revie dropping deep and the others wandering all over the field.

They did not have three players wearing a number 9 shirt as this would be against the laws of the game. How would a referee book the number 9 if there were three number 9s? It would have been spotted easily.

Mind you, they didn't need three number 9s, because as you rightly say, they deployed Don Revie as a withdrawn number 9 (or 'false nine' to use today's lingo) and this was enough to give the opposition centre-back the same problem as posed by the Hungarians. I think it was that which helped hasten the creation of a second centre-back in a starting eleven within the English game (that, and Brazil's win in 1958 using a 4-2-4 formation, which English coaches aped without quite having players of the quality of the Brazilians to make it work).

A team playing 4-2-4 could afford to have a central defender following Revie into midfield and then probably hand him over to one of the midfielders to look after.

 

[TaxiRichieUK]

Some people ought to realise that in the last world cup, Spain lost their first group match and went on to win the world cup

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Some people ought to realise that in the last world cup, Spain lost their first group match and went on to win the world cup

But it was a game when the opposition scored a surprise goal and then closed ranks, playing a nullifying game where a dominant Spain couldn't quite make the breakthrough. Yesterday was a different kettle of fish. Spain were cut to ribbons time and again by Holland's pace and power.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

But it was a game when the opposition scored a surprise goal and then closed ranks, playing a nullifying game where a dominant Spain couldn't quite make the breakthrough. Yesterday was a different kettle of fish. Spain were cut to ribbons time and again by Holland's pace and power.

That game was a bit similar to Birmingham and Middlesbrough at home in 2012-2013, where the away side got a breakaway goal and then shut up shop and we couldn't break them down. Last night, however, was similar in certain ways to the Derby play off game (though obviously not on the same level of class). We continued to play "Spanish" football, even though we were 1 down from the first leg, and got whipped to bits. Yes, Oscar got us to 6th and you have to hand that to him, but if we don't have to see a repeat of last season's football, I for one shall be glad, whatever position we finish in. Whereas, as Kevo says, we were often a joy to watch under Gus. Sheffield Wednesday, Barnsley, Palace and Blackpool at home were class demolition jobs; other than Burnley and Leicester, which I gave Oscar credit for in the threads after his departure, I don't remember too much of that last season.

 

[BensGrandad]

They did not have three players wearing a number 9 shirt as this would be against the laws of the game. How would a referee book the number 9 if there were three number 9s? It would have been spotted easily.

.

I am reasonably certain that rule didnt exist for 1956 cup final and Revie and the inside right and left Joe Hayes and Jack Dyson both wore 9 as did Revie as a result of the possible confusion the rule was made after that season.It musty be remembered there was no such thing as red and yellow cards and players were seldom cautioned or sent off.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I am reasonably certain that rule didnt exist for 1956 cup final and Revie and the inside right and left Joe Hayes and Jack Dyson both wore 9 as did Revie as a result of the possible confusion the rule was made after that season.It musty be remembered there was no such thing as red and yellow cards and players were seldom cautioned or sent off.

Wikipedia lists the Manchester City players as playing 1 to 11.

Of these, you can see Joe Hayes in the number 8 shirt:

Also, Dyson is in the number 10 shirt here:

Footage can be seen after 2 minutes here

 

[Weststander]

The brilliant short passing game, closing down in packs and immensely gifted players of Barca and Spain of the last few years, like all football eras, is coming to end. In that period, it yielded countless trophies - WC's, Euro's and CL's.

For the Albion, our version worked well in the 18 months under Poyet at Withdean with some breathtaking attacking football, for the lucky ones that watched it.
But against more savvy teams/managers and better players in the Championship, in the main it was bore and didn't work. We didn't have the players to carry it off at that level.

 

[crookie]

Simply put, having someone with pace who can come off the wing and drive with pace at central defenders causes panic. Have we anyone who can do that ? Sterling certainly, but for Brighton ? Lua Lua had the pace, Buckley the ability. Will we see it ? I hope so

 

[BensGrandad]

Simply put, having someone with pace who can come off the wing and drive with pace at central defenders causes panic. Have we anyone who can do that ? Sterling certainly, but for Brighton ? Lua Lua had the pace, Buckley the ability. Will we see it ? I hope so

CMS as per Dirk Kuyt at Liverpool..

 

[Leighgull]

The brilliant short passing game, closing down in packs and immensely gifted players of Barca and Spain of the last few years, like all football eras, is coming to end. In that period, it yielded countless trophies - WC's, Euro's and CL's.

For the Albion, our version worked well in the 18 months under Poyet at Withdean with some breathtaking attacking football, for the lucky ones that watched it.
But against more savvy teams/managers and better players in the Championship, in the main it was bore and didn't work. We didn't have the players to carry it off at that level.

Spot on. We had players brought in especially because that was how Gus wanted to play. Only problem was that most of our Spanish lads were just below the highest standard and it was too quickly found out by other teams who just stopped us playing.

 

[Brighton Mod]

I think that was true to a certain extent in the first half of the 2012-13 season - we certainly should have scored more given the the possession we had (remember the Bolton game?!) - but it changed when we signed Ulloa. All we needed was a decent striker to finish off the chances we were creating. We ended that season 5th highest scorers in the division (and scored more goals than Hull, who were promoted), so it's a bit of a myth to say we couldn't score goals.

Interesting that you say that we should try and play with more speed - that's exactly what Oscar said he was going to do and to a large extent it failed. Personally, I didn't find Gus's style boring at all - for a lot of the time, it was an absolute joy to watch. I loved seeing us outclass the opposition with our style and flair. Do we really want to start hoofing it up the pitch?

Holland definitely demonstrated how to counteract Spain's style and fair play to them - but that doesn't mean possession football is dead.

I ught Oscar started the season moving the ball quickly, but as the season progressed he became slower and more defensively minded, as for Gus, I personally found much of what he did boring. I do remember the Sheffield Wednesday match at home where we completely outclassed them and thought this is going to take us to the prem, but there was no consistency and Gus went away and shut shop, Bristol and Barnsley. I do hope for some more expansive football this season and the proper use of CMS as I see him as a wasted asset, in that Poyet never really gave him the game he thrithes on.