Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Said it before, say it again, I just want to know what will happen to the current 'can the guard please contact the driver' scenarios? Somebody smoking in the bogs. Japanese tourist accidentally pressing the Emergency button instead of the Flush button. Passenger taken ill. Somebody pulls whatever they call the communication cord nowadays. Will the onboard trolley dollies be fully trained to deal with such scenarios, or will they say sorry mate not in my job description I'm way too busy selling Southern scratchcards. Who DEALS with those situations? Presumably the driver, who will have to stop the train, navigate his way back through up to twelve overcrowded carriages, assess the situation, then make his way back to his cabin. How long's that going to take? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? If Southern are so keen on trolley dollies, why don't they just employ some, and leave the guard responsible for the safety of the passengers, up to and including opening and closing the doors. The driver's got more than enough on his plate driving the thing. IMHO like.

 

[pasty]

Said it before, say it again, I just want to know what will happen to the current 'can the guard please contact the driver' scenarios? Somebody smoking in the bogs. Japanese tourist accidentally pressing the Emergency button instead of the Flush button. Passenger taken ill. Somebody pulls whatever they call the communications cord nowadays. Will the onboard trolley dollies be fully trained to deal with such scenarios, or will they say sorry mate not in my job description I'm way too busy selling Southern scratchcards. Who DEALS with those situations? Presumably the driver, who will have to stop the train, navigate his way back through up to twelve overcrowded carriages, assess the situation, then make his way back to his cabin. How long's that going to take? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? If Southern are so keen on trolley dollies, why don't they just employ some, and leave the guard responsible for the safety of the passengers, up to and including opening and closing the doors. The driver's got more than enough on his plate driving the thing. IMHO like.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood the issue but everything I have read points to.....

Those situations will still be dealt with by the second member of the train crew who will still be on board the train. It is just that person will a: not be called a guard anymore, and b: not be responsible for closing the doors anymore

 

[albionite]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood the issue but everything I have read points to.....

Those situations will still be dealt with by the second member of the train crew who will still be on board the train. It is just that person will a: not be called a guard anymore, and b: not be responsible for closing the doors anymore

And you think there will be a 2nd member of crew. Blimey what's all the fuss about.

 

[ROSM]

Having just caught the end of the GTR COO on the Today programme this morning my question is, based on her view of the dispute, which of these facts is a) wrong or b) less than the whole picture. Nobody is losing their job, there will still be staff on the trains other than a driver, pay is unchanged, the driver will press the button to shut the door not the conductor. On the face of it that all seems no reason for the omnishambles that passengers are currently being put through but I am genuinely interested to know where the issues are with those proposals.

As I understand it

Staff may be on trains for now but there is no contractual or legal requirement for that to stay that way. The new job is actual an old job that is optional on trains

The argument is that on the trains in question it is dangerous to have the driver solely in charge of doors due to length, platform layout etc

Guards can sell tickets with railcards and discounts, the csp role can't (penalty fare only)

That's the quick summary nub of it as far as I know

 

[See-Goals]

Right on schedule for the usual trying to get home on a Friday afternoon fun...

This is an important announcement
Speed Restriction between Gatwick and Brighton

Due to a speed restriction over a defective piece of track between Gatwick Airport & Brighton trains have to run at a reduced speed on the Brighton bound line. Services running between these stations may be delayed by up to 20 mins with some short notice alterations & cancellations possible. The disruption is expected until the end of the day.

Appreciate Southern have no responsibility for the tracks but it just adds to the usual hell that is the commute on the Brighton mainline at present (train turned up 25 mins late this morning)

 

[Ernest]

The second man on the train the so called 'On Board Supervisor' is an optional need for a train to go and if one is not available or used elsewhere there won't be one on board. The job of OBS is only guaranteed to the end of the franchise whilst the present Guards were employed from franchise to franchise under TUPE.

The OBS won't be trained in any safety or operational roles so if anything needs sorting the driver will have to stop the train and do whatever it needs, crafty fag in bog, pushing emergency stop button, blocking doors etc which not only will delay that train but those following too.

 

[Frutos]

The OBS won't be trained in any safety or operational roles so if anything needs sorting the driver will have to stop the train and do whatever it needs, crafty fag in bog, pushing emergency stop button, blocking doors etc which not only will delay that train but those following too.

I thought that OBS were supposed to be the same people we currently call guards, but with a different job title and altered responsibilities (or so SASTA would have us believe)?

If so, surely they're already trained on dealing with the things mentioned as part of their guard role?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Everyone knows that once compulsory guards on trains become on board supervisors on driver only trains, then they suddenly become an optional role - which will then be cut to boost shareholder profits, and get the head honcho a fat bonus.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Everyone knows that once compulsory guards on trains become on board supervisors on driver only trains, then they suddenly become an optional role - which will then be cut to boost shareholder profits, and get the head honcho a fat bonus.

Bingo. And it's not even subtle. Some people still seem to believe the bullshit GTR and the government trot out that there will always be two people on the train. During disruption the train will be allowed to go without the OBS - remind me which day didn't have disruption in the last few years?

 

[Ernest]

I thought that OBS were supposed to be the same people we currently call guards, but with a different job title and altered responsibilities (or so SASTA would have us believe)?

If so, surely they're already trained on dealing with the things mentioned as part of their guard role?

No the new job description says they will have no safety training or licence. Don't believe what SASTA tell you about this

 

[Ernest]

Everyone knows that once compulsory guards on trains become on board supervisors on driver only trains, then they suddenly become an optional role - which will then be cut to boost shareholder profits, and get the head honcho a fat bonus.

The OBS has been created to stop paying redundancy payment to Conductors, whether that works the tribunals will tell. The OBS will die with natural wastage, as someone leaves or retires they won't be replaced and when the new franchise take over or the agreement with GTR changes the OBS grade will go.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Right on schedule for the usual trying to get home on a Friday afternoon fun...

This is an important announcement
Speed Restriction between Gatwick and Brighton

Due to a speed restriction over a defective piece of track between Gatwick Airport & Brighton trains have to run at a reduced speed on the Brighton bound line. Services running between these stations may be delayed by up to 20 mins with some short notice alterations & cancellations possible. The disruption is expected until the end of the day.

Appreciate Southern have no responsibility for the tracks but it just adds to the usual hell that is the commute on the Brighton mainline at present (train turned up 25 mins late this morning)

If the thunderstorms currently hitting the coast head north then it won't be long before the Balcombe tunnel starts to flood to make commuters life even more miserable.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If the thunderstorms currently hitting the coast head north then it won't be long before the Balcombe tunnel starts to flood to make commuters life even more miserable.

Don't forget the Three Bridges electrical sub-station which appears to act like a lightning rod and invariably gets zapped on such occasions and screws the entire regional network for half a day. Or to use Southern's official term: 'unusually high levels of staff sickness'

 

[pasty]

Thanks **** I'm WFH today. 1800 and 1815 GE from Victoria both already cancelled so far.

 

[Ernest]

Thanks **** I'm WFH today. 1800 and 1815 GE from Victoria both already cancelled so far.

Up to 431 cancellations today, Great Western are totally kaput at Paddington due to yesterdays derailment and the station being closed but even so they're running a better service than SASTA.

Shameful for everyone forced to travel with them

 

[Cosmic Joker]

Having just caught the end of the GTR COO on the Today programme this morning my question is, based on her view of the dispute, which of these facts is a) wrong or b) less than the whole picture. Nobody is losing their job, there will still be staff on the trains other than a driver, pay is unchanged, the driver will press the button to shut the door not the conductor. On the face of it that all seems no reason for the omnishambles that passengers are currently being put through but I am genuinely interested to know where the issues are with those proposals.

I'll have a go at this, as others haven't directly although some of the issue have been addressed so also read the posts about OBS, but be aware I am not a railway employee although I do work in the transport field, so anything I say is second hand knowledge, but I have been following this closely.

"Nobody is losing their job" For now they say no redundancies, but an essential role is being turned into a non-essential role which can be whittled down to almost nothing in future. this is just a theoretical risk, it is exactly what has previously happened on Gatwick Express when that went DOO. Lots of promises that on-board staff would have more time to attend to passengers, but within a couple of years they were gone.

"there will still be staff on the trains other than a driver". As above, initially maybe as they will have a large number of former conductors which they are not making redundant, but as there is no requirement to have one on every train there is less likely to be one at times of disruption, when passengers have more questions. It seems likely that over time the numbers will get less and less as those who leave - and the staff now hate the company so are likely to look elsewhere if they can - are not replaced. In the long run you may see an On Board Supervisor (OBS) about as often as you see a Revenue Protection Inspector now i.e. on rare occasions.

"pay is unchanged" basic is unchanged for now for existing employees. its possible new recruits will be paid less as they have less responsibility i.e. no safety responsibilities. As the OBS isn't required to run a train, there will be few opportunities for overtime for those who do that. Rumour is also that current conductors get a commission on tickets sold on-board but OBS will only get commission for selling full price "Anytime" singles and returns, off-peak tickets won't be sold on-board even when station ticket machines broken etc, which is worse for both staff and passengers.

"the driver will press the button to shut the door not the conductor" yes, but the driver can't leave the cab without shutting down and locking it, so has to rely on the images from in cab monitors. The more carriages on the train, the more little square pictures of bits of platform his monitor display is divided into. If the sun is shining into the camera position or the field of view is blocked, this makes it very difficult. The guard can look up and down the train from standing on the platform at a position half way along the train, before hopping back in to press the button. This isn't perfect or fail safe but both drivers and guards argue that it is better, especially for longer trains. At platforms with curved platforms and very busy ones where it is difficult to see all doors, the dispatch may need to be aided by trained station staff. SASTA are also looking to cut down on these. If the cameras or monitors go on the blink then a DOO train can't call at a station where trained platform staff are not available to assist.

Not mentioned, but raised in subsequent post is that shutting the doors isn't the only safety critical task the guards are responsible for the OBS will not be. This includes dealing with emergency situations, especially where the driver is incapacitated or is too busy dealing with the operational situation to take care of the passengers and to prevent them self-evacuating themselves from the train, potentially onto another track which may have live 3rd rail and / or other trains running on it, or just onto uneven ground on the top of a steep embankment.

That's what I've been picking up some of the issues to do with this are.

 

[nordicgod]

Remember the connex express they started with onboard hosts doing doors, tickets and coffees, then it was just tickets and coffees then just tickets and then disappeared

 

[Ernest]

Remember the connex express they started with onboard hosts doing doors, tickets and coffees, then it was just tickets and coffees then just tickets and then disappeared

Within 18 months the Connex Express Hosts were finished, I was involved at the time with the redundancy talks and luckily there were Conductor jobs for them to go to. Funny enough Charles Horton was boss of Connex at the time

 

[Deadly Danson]

I'll have a go at this, as others haven't directly although some of the issue have been addressed so also read the posts about OBS, but be aware I am not a railway employee although I do work in the transport field, so anything I say is second hand knowledge, but I have been following this closely.

"Nobody is losing their job" For now they say no redundancies, but an essential role is being turned into a non-essential role which can be whittled down to almost nothing in future. this is just a theoretical risk, it is exactly what has previously happened on Gatwick Express when that went DOO. Lots of promises that on-board staff would have more time to attend to passengers, but within a couple of years they were gone.

"there will still be staff on the trains other than a driver". As above, initially maybe as they will have a large number of former conductors which they are not making redundant, but as there is no requirement to have one on every train there is less likely to be one at times of disruption, when passengers have more questions. It seems likely that over time the numbers will get less and less as those who leave - and the staff now hate the company so are likely to look elsewhere if they can - are not replaced. In the long run you may see an On Board Supervisor (OBS) about as often as you see a Revenue Protection Inspector now i.e. on rare occasions.

"pay is unchanged" basic is unchanged for now for existing employees. its possible new recruits will be paid less as they have less responsibility i.e. no safety responsibilities. As the OBS isn't required to run a train, there will be few opportunities for overtime for those who do that. Rumour is also that current conductors get a commission on tickets sold on-board but OBS will only get commission for selling full price "Anytime" singles and returns, off-peak tickets won't be sold on-board even when station ticket machines broken etc, which is worse for both staff and passengers.

"the driver will press the button to shut the door not the conductor" yes, but the driver can't leave the cab without shutting down and locking it, so has to rely on the images from in cab monitors. The more carriages on the train, the more little square pictures of bits of platform his monitor display is divided into. If the sun is shining into the camera position or the field of view is blocked, this makes it very difficult. The guard can look up and down the train from standing on the platform at a position half way along the train, before hopping back in to press the button. This isn't perfect or fail safe but both drivers and guards argue that it is better, especially for longer trains. At platforms with curved platforms and very busy ones where it is difficult to see all doors, the dispatch may need to be aided by trained station staff. SASTA are also looking to cut down on these. If the cameras or monitors go on the blink then a DOO train can't call at a station where trained platform staff are not available to assist.

Not mentioned, but raised in subsequent post is that shutting the doors isn't the only safety critical task the guards are responsible for the OBS will not be. This includes dealing with emergency situations, especially where the driver is incapacitated or is too busy dealing with the operational situation to take care of the passengers and to prevent them self-evacuating themselves from the train, potentially onto another track which may have live 3rd rail and / or other trains running on it, or just onto uneven ground on the top of a steep embankment.

That's what I've been picking up some of the issues to do with this are.

Excellent work - I think that sums up many of the issues in a fair way.

 

[yxee]

I still don't really get the doors thing. What's the safety issue, that the doors close on someone? That someone falls down into the gap? Can that even happen?