Southern Rail STRIKE details

[The Albion Roar]

maybe we could all just move on from the ownership structure and focus on the problems that is the current service. this can be addressed without nationalisation. the letter states that they are already implementing a Remedial Plan for fail to meet targets, thats following problems last year, it explicitly refers to drivers and rolling stock issues. there are now a new set of problems and causes that need to be highlighted.

The Remedial Plan which you hold great store in allows for the train service to worsen, with increased cancellations. The 'new set of problems' are not new at all.

The nationalisation / privatisation issue isn't going to resolve the immediate problem, but it should resolve the long-term problem, if it's done correctly (successive government's have a poor record on this count). Sadly, the current model doesn't cater for long-term issues. So, no - we won't 'just move on from ownership structure'. It's key to the problems; GTR are answerable to no-one except the government department which ideologically has their backs.

You saw the government's response - it was basically 'tough shit'.

 

[Guinness Boy]

maybe we could all just move on from the ownership structure and focus on the problems that is the current service. this can be addressed without nationalisation. the letter states that they are already implementing a Remedial Plan for fail to meet targets, thats following problems last year, it explicitly refers to drivers and rolling stock issues. there are now a new set of problems and causes that need to be highlighted.

Who do you think was responsible for not recruiting enough staff and buying shit rolling stock?

 

[beorhthelm]

... The 'new set of problems' are not new at all.

really, so how often did you hear/see "train cancelled due to lack of available crew" before May? the government/dept/minister/GTR wont be held to account properly if we dont recognise the change and address the new problem. i saw the response, its addressing a petition asking "We are calling for a formal review of this operator." and the answer is they already are working on a plan to improve (i make no judgement on the validity of the plan, just that they are in a remedial process). the petition didnt really address the specific problem, if you don't frame the question correctly you'll leave them room to wriggle out. ask a better, more direct question and maybe we'd get a different more focused answer.

 

[Carrot Cruncher]

really, so how often did you hear/see "train cancelled due to lack of available crew" before May? the government/dept/minister/GTR wont be held to account properly if we dont recognise the change and address the new problem. i saw the response, its addressing a petition asking "We are calling for a formal review of this operator." and the answer is they already are working on a plan to improve (i make no judgement on the validity of the plan, just that they are in a remedial process). the petition didnt really address the specific problem, if you don't frame the question correctly you'll leave them room to wriggle out. ask a better, more direct question and maybe we'd get a different more focused answer.

I largely agree with this. Whilst I do think a review IS needed, despite the remedial plan, the petition title is too woolly and all-encompassing.

 

[Black Rod]

Not sure privitisation is the problem, more that they have merged two franchises into one. Things were never this bad before that happened - split them up again and you might get something vaguely resembling a train service

 

[Deadly Danson]

From the RMT East Sussex page ...
"As collapsing Govia Thameslink Railways prepares to brief MP's today RMT exposes their "Five Big Lies"
In a desperate attempt to further obscure the truth GTR are today holding an ‘information session’ between 12.30pm and 3pm in Dining Room B, a private bolt hole for corporate lobbying in the House of Commons, to brief MPs about their latest failures on the Southern franchise. To set the record straight, rail union RMT is today exposing GTR’s “Five Big Lies.”
Having been caught red handed lying to the public about the impact of staff sickness on the escalating crisis of cancellations and delays to Southern Rail services, GTR are seeking to excuse the fact that they are now well on course to breach the Remedial plan agreed in secret with Government in February. That plan, instead of rectifying failure increased the level acceptable to over 32,000 cancellations a year, which GTR are now just short of, as they cancel by their own admission, at least 83 trains a day.
This catastrophic failure rests wholly with an incompetent managers, poor planning and an orchestrated attack by GTR on its own workforce. Cynical attempts to blame delays and cancellations on staff sickness, when they are in fact down to staff shortages created by a failure to recruit enough workers to fill new rosters, leaves their staff on trains and stations at risk and subjects the passengers to endless misery. The Remedial Plan clearly admits that the controversial and unpopular Driver Only Operation system already operated on part of the network has “significantly increased the number of incidents”.. “causing trains to be delayed and in some cases restricted to call at staffed stations only or cancelled.”
Whilst pretending they are “doing everything we can to avert any further industrial action” they refuse to explain why they will not discuss their proposals with the unions but simply insist that the changes will happen, have issued redundancy notices to staff and intend to go ahead with this regardless of the consequences both to individuals and passengers. It is high time GTR was stripped of this failed franchise and the government recognised that passengers have suffered long enough. It is high time GTR were held to account for their actions and not allowed to hide behind the lies and deceit of a crisis of their own making
RMT demands that those MP’s attending the event today ask GTR to answer the following statements:
Southern: "To be absolutely clear, we are not removing conductors from trains," Charles Horton, GTR Chief Executive Officer, on getSurrey website 19th May
The Truth: “We will be retaining some conductors on some coastal services” ...” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, told BB C Surrey. On BBC News website 28th May.
Southern currently have 470 conductors. They plan to retain 195 as Conductors and the rest will be made into On Board Supervisors (OBSs) which are not same thing. GTR state they will be able to run trains even if no Conductor or OBS is available. So trains will have the Driver as the only safety trained staff member on board, particularly in times of disruption when passengers want information from on-board staff more than normal.
Southern: “The only thing that changes is the new conductors will no longer close the doors...” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, quoted in the Evening Standard Wed 18 May
The Truth: GTR are removing the safety role of the Conductor in the new OBS role. It will not have the critical safety training required to act and protect passengers in an emergency. GTR’s have no plans for OBS to be re-assessed every two years in the extensive safety rules and procedures that Conductors are trained in. This means they will lose the licence proving they are competent in safety critical duties. If the driver is incapacitated who will protect the passengers and perform the vital safety measures needed to avoid collisions or ensure safe evacuations?
Southern: “As many services will have staff on board as they do today.” Charles Horton, GTR Chief Executive Officer, in Southern full-page ad in the Evening Standard Monday 16th May
“There will be the same number of people on trains as there are today”. On Southern website 18th May
The Truth: RMT is absolutely clear that the GTR proposals include extending Driver-Only operation (DOO) to all lines on the Southern network. DOO means what it says: that trains can run with the Driver as the only member of staff on board. At a meeting on 29th April to try and resolve this dispute, RMT asked GTR if they could guarantee that every train which now has a Conductor would in future have a second member of safety trained Southern staff on board. GTR refused to give this guarantee.
Southern: "We know passengers value face to face contact which is why our plans revolve around making staff more available. By removing the need for them to close the doors at each station they will be able to concentrate solely on helping passengers.”
On Evening Standard website Tue 17th May
The Truth: With the huge increase in passenger numbers trains departing from stations pose a real threat to safety and account for a high percentage of serious accidents and fatalities on the railway. That is why the Conductor currently closes the doors and carries out train dispatch at stations. The Conductor ensures everyone is safely on the service and that no one, especially children, the elderly, disabled or intoxicated customers are in a position of risk when the train departs. During the journey the Conductor is there to ensure that customers are provided with assistance or reassurance. That may be because of security fears or being taken ill or having concerns about the behaviour of other customers.
Southern: "Despite repeated efforts over six months, the RMT seem unwilling to talk properly about this. Our door remains open to talks” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, quoted in the Evening Standard Wed 18 May
The Truth: RMT have been in many meetings with GTR and we are willing to meet at any time in the future. GTR will not negotiate on their proposals to extend DOO to all lines on Southern. They insist on simply stating what the new role will be, regardless of any issues this raises for our members, the passengers and other staff. GTR are the ones refusing to talk.
The union also released performance data on the franchise that shows that on-time data this week has sunk as low as a shocking 36% and the overall performance is down to 63% - numbers that should trigger termination (table attached).
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“The GTR passengers and staff don’t believe a word that comes out of this collapsing rail company and there is no reason that MP’s should either.
“Cosy private chats, lined up by corporate lobbyists in the heart of the Westminster, will do nothing to sort the problems at the rotten core of this basket-case franchise. It needs real action and that means throwing these jokers off the routes and bringing the public sector operation in to take over before it is too late.
“Today we release the “Five Big Lies” at the heart of the GTR dirty-tricks operation. The MP’s should take note of what the staff and passengers are saying and ignore the garbage from the GTR spin machine and their team of political lobbyists.”

 

[albionite]

From the RMT East Sussex page ...
"As collapsing Govia Thameslink Railways prepares to brief MP's today RMT exposes their "Five Big Lies"
In a desperate attempt to further obscure the truth GTR are today holding an ‘information session’ between 12.30pm and 3pm in Dining Room B, a private bolt hole for corporate lobbying in the House of Commons, to brief MPs about their latest failures on the Southern franchise. To set the record straight, rail union RMT is today exposing GTR’s “Five Big Lies.”
Having been caught red handed lying to the public about the impact of staff sickness on the escalating crisis of cancellations and delays to Southern Rail services, GTR are seeking to excuse the fact that they are now well on course to breach the Remedial plan agreed in secret with Government in February. That plan, instead of rectifying failure increased the level acceptable to over 32,000 cancellations a year, which GTR are now just short of, as they cancel by their own admission, at least 83 trains a day.
This catastrophic failure rests wholly with an incompetent managers, poor planning and an orchestrated attack by GTR on its own workforce. Cynical attempts to blame delays and cancellations on staff sickness, when they are in fact down to staff shortages created by a failure to recruit enough workers to fill new rosters, leaves their staff on trains and stations at risk and subjects the passengers to endless misery. The Remedial Plan clearly admits that the controversial and unpopular Driver Only Operation system already operated on part of the network has “significantly increased the number of incidents”.. “causing trains to be delayed and in some cases restricted to call at staffed stations only or cancelled.”
Whilst pretending they are “doing everything we can to avert any further industrial action” they refuse to explain why they will not discuss their proposals with the unions but simply insist that the changes will happen, have issued redundancy notices to staff and intend to go ahead with this regardless of the consequences both to individuals and passengers. It is high time GTR was stripped of this failed franchise and the government recognised that passengers have suffered long enough. It is high time GTR were held to account for their actions and not allowed to hide behind the lies and deceit of a crisis of their own making
RMT demands that those MP’s attending the event today ask GTR to answer the following statements:
Southern: "To be absolutely clear, we are not removing conductors from trains," Charles Horton, GTR Chief Executive Officer, on getSurrey website 19th May
The Truth: “We will be retaining some conductors on some coastal services” ...” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, told BB C Surrey. On BBC News website 28th May.
Southern currently have 470 conductors. They plan to retain 195 as Conductors and the rest will be made into On Board Supervisors (OBSs) which are not same thing. GTR state they will be able to run trains even if no Conductor or OBS is available. So trains will have the Driver as the only safety trained staff member on board, particularly in times of disruption when passengers want information from on-board staff more than normal.
Southern: “The only thing that changes is the new conductors will no longer close the doors...” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, quoted in the Evening Standard Wed 18 May
The Truth: GTR are removing the safety role of the Conductor in the new OBS role. It will not have the critical safety training required to act and protect passengers in an emergency. GTR’s have no plans for OBS to be re-assessed every two years in the extensive safety rules and procedures that Conductors are trained in. This means they will lose the licence proving they are competent in safety critical duties. If the driver is incapacitated who will protect the passengers and perform the vital safety measures needed to avoid collisions or ensure safe evacuations?
Southern: “As many services will have staff on board as they do today.” Charles Horton, GTR Chief Executive Officer, in Southern full-page ad in the Evening Standard Monday 16th May
“There will be the same number of people on trains as there are today”. On Southern website 18th May
The Truth: RMT is absolutely clear that the GTR proposals include extending Driver-Only operation (DOO) to all lines on the Southern network. DOO means what it says: that trains can run with the Driver as the only member of staff on board. At a meeting on 29th April to try and resolve this dispute, RMT asked GTR if they could guarantee that every train which now has a Conductor would in future have a second member of safety trained Southern staff on board. GTR refused to give this guarantee.
Southern: "We know passengers value face to face contact which is why our plans revolve around making staff more available. By removing the need for them to close the doors at each station they will be able to concentrate solely on helping passengers.”
On Evening Standard website Tue 17th May
The Truth: With the huge increase in passenger numbers trains departing from stations pose a real threat to safety and account for a high percentage of serious accidents and fatalities on the railway. That is why the Conductor currently closes the doors and carries out train dispatch at stations. The Conductor ensures everyone is safely on the service and that no one, especially children, the elderly, disabled or intoxicated customers are in a position of risk when the train departs. During the journey the Conductor is there to ensure that customers are provided with assistance or reassurance. That may be because of security fears or being taken ill or having concerns about the behaviour of other customers.
Southern: "Despite repeated efforts over six months, the RMT seem unwilling to talk properly about this. Our door remains open to talks” Dyan Crowther, GTR Chief Operating Officer, quoted in the Evening Standard Wed 18 May
The Truth: RMT have been in many meetings with GTR and we are willing to meet at any time in the future. GTR will not negotiate on their proposals to extend DOO to all lines on Southern. They insist on simply stating what the new role will be, regardless of any issues this raises for our members, the passengers and other staff. GTR are the ones refusing to talk.
The union also released performance data on the franchise that shows that on-time data this week has sunk as low as a shocking 36% and the overall performance is down to 63% - numbers that should trigger termination (table attached).
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“The GTR passengers and staff don’t believe a word that comes out of this collapsing rail company and there is no reason that MP’s should either.
“Cosy private chats, lined up by corporate lobbyists in the heart of the Westminster, will do nothing to sort the problems at the rotten core of this basket-case franchise. It needs real action and that means throwing these jokers off the routes and bringing the public sector operation in to take over before it is too late.
“Today we release the “Five Big Lies” at the heart of the GTR dirty-tricks operation. The MP’s should take note of what the staff and passengers are saying and ignore the garbage from the GTR spin machine and their team of political lobbyists.”

Wonder if they are using the trains today to get there. Another complete joke of a service with control not having a clue what they are doing.

Feel very sorry for the passengers.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Its a mess, Southern Rail cancelling 83 trains a day, how can the public rely on this. I am sure the figures show only about 4 drivers off at the moment as well.

Even the local radio are saying it is due staff shortages now rather than the previously stated staff sicknesses.

 

[The Albion Roar]

really, so how often did you hear/see "train cancelled due to lack of available crew" before May?

This problem has been growing since long before May.

Southern is a company which relies on the insufficient numbers of staff to work overtime and rest days; to stop these means they cannot run the full service - as is currently being proved. The problems (understaffing) are not new - and they are central to what's going on. The new problems are the self-inflicted ones created by Southern, and should therefore be more easily remedied - by returning to practices which allowed trains to run.

 

[Hotchilidog]

This problem has been growing since long before May.

Southern is a company which relies on the insufficient numbers of staff to work overtime and rest days; to stop these means they cannot run the full service - as is currently being proved. The problems (understaffing) are not new - and they are central to what's going on. The new problems are the self-inflicted ones created by Southern, and should therefore be more easily remedied - by returning to practices which allowed trains to run.

Exactly. Southern have always been short staffed but have been able to run something approaching the published timetable. I am stunned that they have been allowed to publish a timetable that they have insufficent staff to run.

The problems are getting worse now as the (pre-decided) cancellations and delays become the accepted norm. Each evening at around 17.50 I roll into gatwick and pretty much every southbound train will be delayed and a handful cancelled. They seem to rotate the cancelled trains in the evning, this week it is my train the 18.07 that has failed to run so far (even when it does it is often only five carriages rather than 10). Next week I'm sure they'll pick another one. London bound Express services (for which they rip off visitors at a premium price) are also prone to cancellation.

For the record my morning train this week Monday short formation standing room only from Brighton, Tuesday cancelled resulting in a half hour delay in getting to work, Wednesday, train still in the depot at departure time, resulting in yet another half hour delay for me as connection was missed by two minutes.

Further up the line towards Vic/CJ and East croydon it can get even worse.

Add in the slashing the of the coastway east and west routes to a practically skeleton service and you effectively have a non functioning network, letting down thousands upon thousands of rail passengers.

This is all preventable and GTR know it but they CHOOSE to let this happen. It is an absolute scandal and the shoddy response from Government today shows that they couldn't really care less.

 

[pearl]

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “A Petition for Southern Rail (Govia Thameslink Railway) Franchise Review.”.
Government responded:
Govia Thameslink Railway are delivering plans to reverse decades of under-investment on the rail network. A further review into GTR will not address the challenges that their plans intend to overcome.
The challenges of this part of the network are not new. The industry and Government are addressing the longstanding, historic problems, including driver shortages, rolling stock and network capacity. By 2018 we expect to return the network to the performance that all passengers deserve, and we will do it with increased capacity, renewed facilities and robust, durable infrastructure.
This part of the network is extremely complex; indeed it is one of the busiest in Europe. Punctuality on this part of the network has always proven challenging due to the complexity of the infrastructure and the volume of services that operate on it. However, we know that passengers are very frustrated about performance and the service they receive.
The Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) franchise incorporates an unprecedented level of investment in the network. The introduction of new trains, new infrastructure and new ways of working is intended to reverse decades of under-investment on this part of the network and provide passengers with more capacity on more reliable services. Given the recent growth in passenger demand, maintaining the status quo is not an option. But the transformation cannot occur overnight. It will take time and close management across the industry to ensure improvements are delivered to passengers.
Using the contractual mechanisms available, the Secretary of State served a Remedial Plan notice to GTR last year. In response, GTR have developed a Remedial Plan in response which includes obligations for GTR to recruit and train sufficient drivers to operate current and future timetables, improve reliability of rolling stock and provide better customer information. Passengers are still likely to see disruption occurring in the short term as these plans take time to implement, however taking the franchise away from GTR will not help resolve the issues. This would only create a period of uncertainty for passengers and staff alike. While there are plans in place that are addressing the situation, it is right to allow the current operator the time to address and work through the issues.
The Franchise Agreement sets out the steps the Secretary of State must take should GTR not meet its contractual performance benchmarks. There are further actions available to the Secretary of State should GTR not meet their obligations and be in breach of its Franchise Agreement. At that point the Department will follow its published enforcement process.
Whilst we understand the frustration felt by passengers affected by disruption, we would like to assure you that the Department for Transport is determined to see further improvements and for GTR to provide the service that passengers expect.
Department for Transport
Click this link to view the response online:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113871?reveal_response=yes
The Petitions Committee will take a look at this petition and its response. They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.
The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: https://petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

 

[Whitechapel]

4th time in 5 shifts my train to work has been cancelled. Southern site said it was running normally today when I left my house. Get to the station and it's cancelled.

The one time it wasn't cancelled the app said it was 3 minutes late which was a god send as I was running a little late. Got to the station at 1:43 (the time it's supposed to leave if not delayed) to see the train pulling away. Couldn't make it up ffs

 

[Whitechapel]

4th time in 5 shifts my train to work has been cancelled. Southern site said it was running normally today when I left my house. Get to the station and it's cancelled.

The one time it wasn't cancelled the app said it was 3 minutes late which was a god send as I was running a little late. Got to the station at 1:43 (the time it's supposed to leave if not delayed) to see the train pulling away. Couldn't make it up ffs

 

[Arthur]

Southern currently have 470 conductors. They plan to retain 195 as Conductors and the rest will be made into On Board Supervisors (OBSs) which are not same thing. GTR state they will be able to run trains even if no Conductor or OBS is available. So trains will have the Driver as the only safety trained staff member on board, particularly in times of disruption when passengers want information from on-board staff more than normal.

That has to be a good thing for passengers surely. Removing 50% of the chance of a service being cancelled because of lack of train crew.

 

[Springal]

White flag waved again. 16.17 cancelled, 16.20 is rammed with no one able to get on at Clapham

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

White flag waved again. 16.17 cancelled, 16.20 is rammed with no one able to get on at Clapham

The management need to resign and the goverment get someone in who knows how to run a basic service. Feel sorry for the commuters having to endure this ongoing incompetence with no end in sight.

 

[Simgull]

 

[biddles911]

I largely agree with this. Whilst I do think a review IS needed, despite the remedial plan, the petition title is too woolly and all-encompassing.

Agree with this. We need a petition something along the lines of:-

"Southern rail commuters have totally lost confidence in the ability of GTR to manage their franchise in either the short or the long term, as evidenced both by past problems and, in particular, the current abysmal service which calls into question their integrity and capabilities in handling the current industrial dispute.

We call on the Government accordingly to inform GTR that their franchise will not be renewed and put out to tender at the earliest possible opportunity."

Clearly this won't help in the short term but might get results in the long term? Don't believe in re-nationalisation. I still remember British Rail too well......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Beach Hut]

Train left Vic 10 late will I make my connection at the Heath

 

[Springal]

17.23 Brighton to Littlehampton was full, couldn't board.

17.33 to Southampton cancelled

What a bunch of *****