[Politics] Society

[Fitzcarraldo]

Hans, I did not say 'slagging each other off', I said a slagging match and blame game. That is slightly different.
Yes, the Government of the day are in a position to influence matters and I take Clamp's point re 'inextricably linked' but I think the OP was commenting on society's attitude to the problem of homelessness, rather than the failure of successive Governments to solve this complex problem.
It is regrettable that posts such as those made by Palacefinder General and Horses Arse resort to a simplistic slagging off and blame gaming..........just as I said.
Have a read of what they said.
P.S. I don't think we are really disagreeing over a worthy thread though.

Can you not see that one follows the other? If successive Conservative governments cuts services for those at the bottom, under the guise of 'austerity', and attacks those in need as: scroungers, skivers and 'idling all day in bed with the curtains drawn', then societal attitudes towards those people will also shift and see them as not worthy of empathy.

 

[BLOCK F]

The day you take seriously the typed ramblings of a load of middle aged dullards who should know better than to waste their lives on here is the day to quit this place.

You could be right PG.
Forgive me if I took your rambling too seriously and I apologise!
You do have form though!

 

[The Clamp]

Situation is not political and shouldnt be treated as touch. Whatever party in power would find it hard to solve. Last 2 years have seen just as many on street in Hamburg,Valencia and Lyon. I do donate and help a local charity who often tell me not to give money. I have given food to some but also give the charity cards out who tell me they can get a bed ,clothes doctor dentist etc.

Good work. However we will have to “agree to disagree” on the politics of it. My experience tells me to separate the two is to ignore a huge cause of poverty. Whichever country is in play. When you have a party that cuts women’s services and instructs architects and town planners to “design the homeless out of central London”, then it’s relevant.

 

[Commander]

We are living in an age where the gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever.

I keep hearing this claim. It's utter nonsense! Go back a hundred years or two and I think you'll find the gap was a hell of a lot bigger.

Why does Brighton have more homeless / beggars than anywhere else? Certainly in the UK. It's awful. The worst thing is how hard it is to tell between genuine homeless people and professional beggars, because there are loads of both.

Just this morning I heard the shop assistant in Tesco on Queen's Road say "That Big Issue guy hasn't been in for a while, I wonder where he is". "Dead, hopefully" came the reply from the security guard. I wish I'd said "You're a ****ing security guard on minimum wage in Tesco's Express mate, a couple of bits of bad fortune and you could be out there with him" but I didn't.

Brighton really does have a huge problem with homeless people. I've no idea what the solution is.

 

[The Clamp]

I keep hearing this claim. It's utter nonsense! Go back a hundred years or two and I think you'll find the gap was a hell of a lot bigger.

Why does Brighton have more homeless / beggars than anywhere else? Certainly in the UK. It's awful. The worst thing is how hard it is to tell between genuine homeless people and professional beggars, because there are loads of both.

Just this morning I heard the shop assistant in Tesco on Queen's Road say "That Big Issue guy hasn't been in for a while, I wonder where he is". "Dead, hopefully" came the reply from the security guard. I wish I'd said "You're a ****ing security guard on minimum wage in Tesco's Express mate, a couple of bits of bad fortune and you could be out there with him" but I didn't.

Brighton really does have a huge problem with homeless people. I've no idea what the solution is.

Homes?

 

[Justice]

I keep hearing this claim. It's utter nonsense! Go back a hundred years or two and I think you'll find the gap was a hell of a lot bigger.

Why does Brighton have more homeless / beggars than anywhere else? Certainly in the UK. It's awful. The worst thing is how hard it is to tell between genuine homeless people and professional beggars, because there are loads of both.

Just this morning I heard the shop assistant in Tesco on Queen's Road say "That Big Issue guy hasn't been in for a while, I wonder where he is". "Dead, hopefully" came the reply from the security guard. I wish I'd said "You're a ****ing security guard on minimum wage in Tesco's Express mate, a couple of bits of bad fortune and you could be out there with him" but I didn't.

Brighton really does have a huge problem with homeless people. I've no idea what the solution is.

I heard the London homeless get offered a few quid and train ticket to Brighton. The rich don’t want to see homeless folk outside there multimillion pound home in Belgravia.

 

[BLOCK F]

Can you not see that one follows the other? If successive Conservative governments cuts services for those at the bottom, under the guise of 'austerity', and attacks those in need as: scroungers, skivers and 'idling all day in bed with the curtains drawn', then societal attitudes towards those people will also shift and see them as not worthy of empathy.

I am not going to get into a political discussion with you, but we were talking about the particular problem of homelessness rather than the more general subject of welfare.
My main point was that it is a complex problem that no Government has been able to solve, and to blame the Tories in isolation is unhelpful. I also wanted to point out one or two posts that were doing just that.
For what it is worth, of course there are some lazy scroungers in society; there always have been and always will be, but I certainly don't view people who are less fortunate than many of us on here as scroungers, scivers and bone idle curtain drawn merchants. Again, the reasons are plenty and complex. It is not an easy problem to solve as successive Governments have discovered.
The problem deserves better than engaging in a never ending blame game played by politicians and activists.
The more I think about politics, and possibly the older I get, I begin to see more and more merit in some kind of proportional representation.

 

[beorhthelm]

Indeed - and I commended you for it.

The rest was in response to your plea to The Clamp, to ‘not make it political’. It simply is a political matter, whether or not you’d like to consider it so.

If you despair of the lot of the most vulnerable in our midst, and feel that society should offer them more help, then you have a choice.

problem is some too quick to make a partisan political issue. it seems to me that decades of this habit have led to poor general policy formulation, with patchwork of services across the country. more money isnt probably going solve it without wider considerations. i dont believe solutions and policy are properly developed so not properly budgeted.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Although the financial crisis brought things to a head, I think the roots of the society problem go a lot deeper than the last 10 years or so.

There has been a steady shrinking of what you could call proper jobs or "careers" over the last 50 years or more. Whole industries have gone - car manufacturing, mining, shipbuilding, fishing, high street banking (soon to be followed by the rest of the High Street) etc etc. Public sector employment has also fallen. And replaced by what? Service industry jobs - generally low paid and less secure, assuming you can find the one (or three) jobs you need to cover the spiralling cost of housing, utilities and food.

And just to cheer people up, I can only see this trend continuing - ever more automation will see to that.

We're probably going to get to the point in 20/30 years where we will need to pay people for not working.

 

[Commander]

Although the financial crisis brought things to a head, I think the roots of the society problem go a lot deeper than the last 10 years or so.

There has been a steady shrinking of what you could call proper jobs or "careers" over the last 50 years or more. Whole industries have gone - car manufacturing, mining, shipbuilding, fishing, high street banking (soon to be followed by the rest of the High Street) etc etc. Public sector employment has also fallen. And replaced by what? Service industry jobs - generally low paid and less secure, assuming you can find the one (or three) jobs you need to cover the spiralling cost of housing, utilities and food.

And just to cheer people up, I can only see this trend continuing - ever more automation will see to that.

We're probably going to get to the point in 20/30 years where we will need to pay people for not working.

Automation is going to change so much in the next 20-30 years. The idea of learning a trade in your 20s and working in it until you retire will he dead. Humans are going to have to learn to adapt and learn completely new skills and change careers every ten years or so. I don’t necessarily see this as a negative though, humans are adaptable enough to cope with it.

 

[Chicken Run]

I am not going to get into a political discussion with you, but we were talking about the particular problem of homelessness rather than the more general subject of welfare.
My main point was that it is a complex problem that no Government has been able to solve, and to blame the Tories in isolation is unhelpful. I also wanted to point out one or two posts that were doing just that.
For what it is worth, of course there are some lazy scroungers in society; there always have been and always will be, but I certainly don't view people who are less fortunate than many of us on here as scroungers, scivers and bone idle curtain drawn merchants. Again, the reasons are plenty and complex. It is not an easy problem to solve as successive Governments have discovered.
The problem deserves better than engaging in a never ending blame game played by politicians and activists.
The more I think about politics, and possibly the older I get, I begin to see more and more merit in some kind of proportional representation.

10 years of a Labour Government wouldn’t solve the homeless crisis imho.

 

[Stat Brother]

Only just clinging to this thread, but nevertheless it's a nice quote:-

[tweet]1192758233565474816[/tweet]

 

[Chicken Run]

Only just clinging to this thread, but nevertheless it's a nice quote:-

[tweet]1192758233565474816[/tweet]

Agreed, I like that

 

[Mo Gosfield]

There is not a housing shortage in this country. There is a shortage of affordable housing. The Tory 2015 pledge to build 200,000 starter homes, to be sold to first time buyers under 40, at a discount, has not happened. Not a single property built. Meanwhile, we have a surplus of 1.1 million houses in the UK because housebuilders/developers keep building mega estates of 3-4-5 bedroom properties, averaging about £400k in price, that invariably land back in the hands of speculators, who snap them up for private rental.
Then we get obscene schemes like the ' Oxford/Cambridge Arc ' purported to regenerate the areas between the two University cities and taking in Milton Keynes. This ' regeneration ' involves a new rail line, a car expressway and guess what...one million new homes...and guess how affordable they are going to be? ( Oh...and just 67,000 acres of green field farmland and woodland, the size of Birmingham, lost forever )
There is no social conscience in this country. Central government and big business ride roughshod over real local needs and stick two fingers up to all of us. It is obscene and corrupt and we let them get away with it, whilst the numbers of homeless continue to grow. It doesn't interest many in the affluent SE, owning their own homes, comfortable salaries, kids going thru Uni, sizeable pension pots, 2-3 holidays a year etc. They spend all their time worrying about Brexit and any diminution in their lifestyle. Its not their fault. Its what they have become used to. A society with massive regional inequality. House prices have risen over 150% in the last 20-25 years and now we have the lowest level of home ownership for generations.
We need more social housing. Lots of it. We have to offer a lot more people some hope. Every town and city in this country should have government funded centres for the homeless, nationally recognised, open 24/7, with the capacity to take decent numbers. Local drop-in places help ( church organisations etc ) but it needs more, a lot more.

 

[The Clamp]

It’s not a cheap political point in any way. I work with some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Women with mental health problems, substance abuse issues, DV backgrounds, hostel and street homeless, trafficked women and sex workers. I am well aware of how they find themselves in such straits. I am also acutely aware how ten years of Conservative rule exacerbated the situation.
I spend twelve and a half hours with such women 5 nights a week.
Not point scoring. Just facts. So before you accuse posters of making “cheap” points ask yourself if they may know something about the situation and perhaps have something of import to say about it.

As for your OP, yes, they deserve much more than our contempt.

There is not a housing shortage in this country. There is a shortage of affordable housing. The Tory 2015 pledge to build 200,000 starter homes, to be sold to first time buyers under 40, at a discount, has not happened. Not a single property built. Meanwhile, we have a surplus of 1.1 million houses in the UK because housebuilders/developers keep building mega estates of 3-4-5 bedroom properties, averaging about £400k in price, that invariably land back in the hands of speculators, who snap them up for private rental.
Then we get obscene schemes like the ' Oxford/Cambridge Arc ' purported to regenerate the areas between the two University cities and taking in Milton Keynes. This ' regeneration ' involves a new rail line, a car expressway and guess what...one million new homes...and guess how affordable they are going to be? ( Oh...and just 67,000 acres of green field farmland and woodland, the size of Birmingham, lost forever )
There is no social conscience in this country. Central government and big business ride roughshod over real local needs and stick two fingers up to all of us. It is obscene and corrupt and we let them get away with it, whilst the numbers of homeless continue to grow. It doesn't interest many in the affluent SE, owning their own homes, comfortable salaries, kids going thru Uni, sizeable pension pots, 2-3 holidays a year etc. They spend all their time worrying about Brexit and any diminution in their lifestyle. Its not their fault. Its what they have become used to. A society with massive regional inequality. House prices have risen over 150% in the last 20-25 years and now we have the lowest level of home ownership for generations.
We need more social housing. Lots of it. We have to offer a lot more people some hope. Every town and city in this country should have government funded centres for the homeless, nationally recognised, open 24/7, with the capacity to take decent numbers. Local drop-in places help ( church organisations etc ) but it needs more, a lot more.

You know. Great post.

 

[The Clamp]

10 years of a Labour Government wouldn’t solve the homeless crisis imho.

But they wouldn’t be actively working against the vulnerable and that’s what is crucial.

 

[GT49er]

I keep hearing this claim. It's utter nonsense! Go back a hundred years or two and I think you'll find the gap was a hell of a lot bigger.

Go back about 40 or 50 years and the gap was the smallest it's ever been. There have been some disastrous political mistakes since then.

The worst thing is how hard it is to tell between genuine homeless people and professional beggars, because there are loads of both..

True.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The point I was attempting to make was how we see and interact with these people as we go about our day. How long would it be before someone stops and aids a lost dog? Stops and helps an injured animal? Or helps a fellow human being?

I have to say you’re making it rather clumsily. I totally agree with [MENTION=33848]The Clamp[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3566]hans kraay fan club[/MENTION]

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Automation is going to change so much in the next 20-30 years. The idea of learning a trade in your 20s and working in it until you retire will he dead.

The trick is to find a job which is so shit even a robot will refuse to do it.

 

[Commander]

The trick is to find a job which is so shit even a robot will refuse to do it.

I thought that was what immigrants were for?