[Football] So why has this team managed to do what no other England team has done in 55 years?

[Stat Brother]

I'd imagine the desire to make Laurence Fox look even more like a **** is also a strong reason to perform.

[tweet]1411443991283916801[/tweet]


Thanks Larry.

 

[herecomesaregular]

On the pitch, as mentioned, it's always thin margins. They've been going our way, as they do for all teams that manage to reach the final/win the final. We could easily have been out on several occasions and Southgate ridiculed as usual for failing, as usual.

Off the pitch, Southgate has done wonders.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Because they've approached this tournament NOT as a 'golden generation' but as a team who'll need to graft to get results.


Say what you want about GS, and I frequently have, but every other manager would have attempted to squeeze Folden, Sock Boy, Sterling and Sancho into the same team just to appease the entitled media and fans.

GS has been thoughtful and pragmatic, I can't name another England manager I'd write that about, he's had a plan and has executed it perfectly.





Scroll back 6 weeks and I wouldn't have written a word of that.

Alf Ramsey. I'm no expert in the 1966 squad, but I very much doubt that Jack Charlton, Nobby Stiles, Geoff Hurst and Roger Hunt were the best players in those positions available. They fitted the system that he wanted to play. He left out the goal machine that was Jimmy Greaves in the final for example. GS has picked the best team, not the best players available in each position. Simple really

 

[boik]

Alf Ramsey. I'm no expert in the 1966 squad, but I very much doubt that Jack Charlton, Nobby Stiles, Geoff Hurst and Roger Hunt were the best players in those positions available. They fitted the system that he wanted to play. He left out the goal machine that was Jimmy Greaves in the final for example. GS has picked the best team, not the best players available in each position. Simple really

Apparently Jack Charlton ask Alf how come he was in the team when he wasn't anywhere near as good a Bobby, and Alf said "I don't pick the best players - I pick the best team". Seems like GS has that same idea. We've tried gung-ho and failed numerous times, seems like a bit of pragmatism might pay off.

 

[Pint of Ale and a Burger]

They all talk a good game when they're winning. If Kane hadn't scored the rebound from his fluffed penalty and the subsequent penalty shoot-out had gone the way they usually do, then there would have been a completely different narrative this morning. Thin margins

the article Was written a few days before last night's game and I think the success Syed was discussing was the success of reaching the semi final and I think it's fair to say that the teams attitude on the path to the semi final has been vastly different from previous tournaments and credit to that must go to Southgate for accepting the ideas of Syed and the rest of the team of non football experts and the experts themselves.

Syed gave a good example of Google who as a company had some of the most creative minds in the world but one day they started to realise all the good new ideas seemed to be drying up and the company was sorting to feel stale.

They spent a lot of time looking into the reason why and it became apparent Google was recruiting Graduates from the same universities who had studied under the same professors so the company was actually becoming full of the same like-minded people and creativity and new ideas and indeed ideas which challenge the old way of doing things, were simply not coming into the business.

The same thing has been happening in the England camp for the last 55 years which is why we can always pretty much know how,why and when we fail at a tournament long before it has begun.

In the past we simply haven't dealt with the problems that lead to our repeated failure because the problems are not always football related and all we ever through at the problem is"football people"who are not qualified or capable of understanding or dealing with these problems.

This time it's different because the way the team is run has been looked at from experts who are from outside the world of football which has built an excellent foundation from which to play football which from my perspective has been good morale in the camp,quality leadership and also a unity between the fans and the squad.

A good example of leadership and good team morale was grealish last night.
Southgate sends him on,he's not as effective as hoped so he takes him off again.

A ruthless desicion that other football people would not have done either from ego and fearing they will look foolish or worried it may hurt or anger the player.

Southgate was able to do this because he is able first of all to put his ego to one side and do what's right for the team to win and also know that grealish will understand too.

Grealish also was able to understand the desicion and took it on the chin because he understands the bigger picture of the right desicions being made for the whole team not just himself.

This was made possible by quality leadership and desicion making and a good team spirit throughout the whole squad and an understanding of the culture and whats expected.

I agree it thin margins now,but it always will be when a side gets to the final four that is where the football side of things comes into it and a penalty shootout would have been a great test of how well we have changed mentally and we may see that on Sunday.
but the big difference this time around is the previous problems that usually mean an implosion in the England camp and our usual exit,have been sorted which I believe have enabled us to get so far and this is down to non football experts being brought in.

They are all volunteers too which is nice and I don't know for sure but I seem to recall ashworth had a part in bringing them all in so he should take a lot of credit if he did.
It does feel very similar to what he's done here at Brighton and potters emotional intelligence way of doing things.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

I think the biggest factor is mentality.

How many times have we seen our top players go into tournaments and die on their arses. They freeze, they buckle under the pressure and look a shadow of the players we see tearing it up week-in week-out for their clubs, both domestically and in Europe. It accounts for our misplaced optimism whenever these tournaments come round - they ALWAYS let us down.

This squad is different. Southgate has somehow created a relaxed environment, where (from the outside looking in) there is harmony, and calm. The players are trusted to go out and express themselves. They look calm and relaxed, they look confident. I dunno how Southgate has managed to instil that, but just look at the performances he is getting from each and every one of them as a result.

Mentality, I tells ya.

Spot on. Feels more like a Club than an international team than I can ever remember before.

 

[Uter]

Because English football decided to join the modern football world.

English players were often seen as top class in the past. Then they played international competition and were found out technically and tactically. Sure, they could run, tackle and shoot hard and they knew how to play 4-4-2 but that was pretty much it. This generation is a lot better schooled, if the play against something that isnt 4-4-2 they are not going to go cry in a corner, and technically they are up in the top. Someone like David Beckham may have been part of your "golden generation" but compared to someone like Luis Figo he just looked like a pretty sad player. Or someone like Michael Owen... watch the game against Brazil in 2002. Heskey and Owen vs Rivaldo and Ronaldo. Why did anyone think England would win?

Today the English players are as good as anyone and football (especially European) is a lot more streamlined, which also helps.

Look at the 2006 squad. They were street footballers from south east London. Beckham, Lampard, Cole, Terry, Carrick, Defoe, Ferdinand, King, Richardson and Young were all from there or had strong connections to it and they were playing against street footballers from countries where you could play 365 days a year. Today its different, they all come from great academies that are similar to academies anywhere else. It took a while to get there. Previous England teams were overrated,, other nations simply produced better footballers. This one isnt.

Yes, we finally decided to take youth development seriously. No doubt in my mind this is the biggest single factor, although it is worth mentioning that a lot of the England team are too old to have had much benefit from the recent reforms in youth football. I am not sure if this undermines my position, or gives even more reason to be optimistic about the future. I'd hope the latter.

I think it was apparent that our players were generally technically inferior compared to other national sides for decades. Any gifted players we were blessed with were gifted despite the system, not because of it. But it took a long time for those in power to accept this uncomfortable home truth, and just as long again to do something meaningful about it.

The gap has definitely been closed now. I'd say this was primarily down to the changes at the FA that Dyke drove through and also the Premier League EPPP.

The money that has been pumped into youth football is incredible really. It must exceed anything that the FA and PL could ever have envisioned. I think our facility alone has cost £30m - £40m. Leicester's new academy and training facility has cost £100m. Vast sums spent, all over the country.

In fact, if anything there are possibly too many Cat 1 academies now. The best players need to play with the best. Having a large number of Cat 1 academies arguably dilutes the talent too much. But that's a minor gripe.

Of course, taking England youth teams seriously has had another less tangible benefit. Many of these players have grown up playing for England together all over the world and are friends. Winning tournaments with England at youth level must also help with nerves.

 

[Brovion]

Because they've approached this tournament NOT as a 'golden generation' but as a team who'll need to graft to get results.


Say what you want about GS, and I frequently have, but every other manager would have attempted to squeeze Folden, Sock Boy, Sterling and Sancho into the same team just to appease the entitled media and fans.

GS has been thoughtful and pragmatic, I can't name another England manager I'd write that about, he's had a plan and has executed it perfectly.


Scroll back 6 weeks and I wouldn't have written a word of that.

Yes, another one here to agree 100%.

However it's not just Southgate, his coaches and this squad, it is also due in a very large part to all the 'behind the scenes' changes that have happened to the whole English footballing culture. The FA is no longer run by a load of County officials who just expected the England team to be good because we invented the game and we won the war. For years we were crap and we simply blamed the manager - sack him and everything will be fine. Finally the penny* dropped and changes were made.

Also the coaching in this country has improved no end, and if nothing else the England players are no longer footballing neanderthals who can only belt the ball long and run the channels. Those last few minutes of extra time last night: England teams of the past could never have kept the ball like that, it was eye-opening.


*Probably more accurate to say 'pennies' as I don't think there was a single event that ushered in the New Age, it was more a series of developments.


EDIT: Actually Swanny has made the coaching point far more eloquently than me. Are we sure English isn't his main language?

 

[Originunknown]

No sorry I'm not really having this as our bit of 'being successful by association'.

The modern era England team has always had youth development and 'stability' is a bit of a nothing word when it comes to the players and tournament football.
Not one of them is currently thinking 'I'm glad there's some stability at the FA'.


I'd love to know how GS' interview went when he fell into the job - and he did fall into it.

This is a decent article which might give you some context.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-genuine-challengers-international-stage.html

 

[Sheebo]

Germans were poor. Previous teams would have stuffed us.

Yep - you’re so right.

Croatia - got lucky draw to the World Cup final - have players who have even got older in years since then - it what they were - rubbish team, easy first game

Czech R - Most out of form striker in the tourno. 2 of the worst premier league performers in the West Ham team last season - poborsky etc would have thrashed England

Germany - youve done that one - Not the same team they ever have been - worst Germany side in 765 years

Ukraine - Pub team - don’t know how they got there - Rotherham would have beaten them 7-0

Denmark - Until last night they were good - but now they’re bad and it’s a gimmie to the final

Italy 1 - We lost to first decent team we played

Italy 2 - Won’t get an easier final. They were knackered. They got an injury. Won’t get an easier final.

(Delete as applicable)

I can’t be bothered to do the national league teams but Spain away - not what they were - east game. Croatia - not as old as above but still not as good as they were to reach the World Cup final X months before we played and beat them. Belgium - Easy game and win for England as Belgium don’t play well as a team.

 

[Sheebo]

This. Poor German side and a soft draw through to the final. England squad is bang average but has managed to somehow swerve the likes of Belgium who would have put them to the sword earlydoors.

Still, total respect to the England squad for putting smiles on faces. Christ knows we've needed it this past 18 months. Enjoy the final

As usual you’re 100% correct and deal in the facts

 

[stewart12]

I think it's probably due to finally adopting the political ideologies of Karl Marx

 

[atfc village]

I'm with Stat

Gsouth has played what he considers a team capable of getting a job done . . . .not just trying to get 11 of the best players on the pitch at the same time.

there are better individuals on the bench than on the pitch . . He's not even playing the best goal keeper in the squad.

On another night Pickford pays for get caught out 3 times with poor passing at the back ,it's happened before and will happen again

 

[Thunder Bolt]

All winners need an element of luck, good or bad. Muller would've scored his goal 9 times out of 10, to equalise.
We've had enough bad luck in the past with Lambert's 'non goal' and 'hand of god' etc.

Of course I meant Lampard, not Lambert.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Gareth has played a blinder but he also has an EXCELLENT talent pool to pick from. It's funny that many speak as if this is the same team as 2018.

When you actually look at the squads in 2018 we had this lot:

Danny Rose
Eric Dier
Lingard
Vardy
Butland
Welbeck
Cahill
Phil Jones
Delph
Ashley Young
Alli
Loftus Cheek

That's an amazing overhaul in players without feeling it.

The REALLY exciting thing is the likes of Shaw, Saka, Bellingham, Chilwell, White, James, Rice, Grealish, Phillips, Sancho, Mount, Foden, Rashford and Calvert Lewin are all 25 and under. I believe 12 of those weren't in the 2018 squad. The experience they will get from just being in the camp during this journey is priceless.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Because they've approached this tournament NOT as a 'golden generation' but as a team who'll need to graft to get results.


Say what you want about GS, and I frequently have, but every other manager would have attempted to squeeze Folden, Sock Boy, Sterling and Sancho into the same team just to appease the entitled media and fans.

GS has been thoughtful and pragmatic, I can't name another England manager I'd write that about, he's had a plan and has executed it perfectly.





Scroll back 6 weeks and I wouldn't have written a word of that.

Brilliant. I agree with every word of that, and the tone of it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yep - you’re so right.

Croatia - got lucky draw to the World Cup final - have players who have even got older in years since then - it what they were - rubbish team, easy first game

Czech R - Most out of form striker in the tourno. 2 of the worst premier league performers in the West Ham team last season - poborsky etc would have thrashed England

Germany - youve done that one - Not the same team they ever have been - worst Germany side in 765 years

Ukraine - Pub team - don’t know how they got there - Rotherham would have beaten them 7-0

Denmark - Until last night they were good - but now they’re bad and it’s a gimmie to the final

Italy 1 - We lost to first decent team we played

Italy 2 - Won’t get an easier final. They were knackered. They got an injury. Won’t get an easier final.

(Delete as applicable)

I can’t be bothered to do the national league teams but Spain away - not what they were - east game. Croatia - not as old as above but still not as good as they were to reach the World Cup final X months before we played and beat them. Belgium - Easy game and win for England as Belgium don’t play well as a team.

I'll give you 110% out of ten for research and endeavour

 

[vagabond]

This. Poor German side and a soft draw through to the final. England squad is bang average but has managed to somehow swerve the likes of Belgium who would have put them to the sword earlydoors.

Still, total respect to the England squad for putting smiles on faces. Christ knows we've needed it this past 18 months. Enjoy the final

Come on.

Fair enough you may hate England but the squad is hardly “bang average” is it, that’s just silly.

 

[Perkino]

To compare the 2006 Golden generation to last nights line up shows us plenty:
Robinson, Neville, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard, Cole, Owen, Rooney
Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Saka, Rice, Phillips, Mount, Sterling, Kane

Neither team had a natural left footed attacker and very few of the 2020 squad would be chosen ahead of the 2006 squad in a premier league squad when in their prime. The biggest difference I can see is that the 2006 squad was full of exceptional players at club level who would regularly take control of a game and be pivotal in winning trophies each year whilst they were supported by sacrificial team mates. The 2020 squad is built around a solid defensive set up with 2 holding midfielders making it very difficult to score against us, subsequently we have a team full of players willing to play their part for the greater good. 2006 never had that mind set and we lost to a Portugal side containing 10 disciplined workers plus Ronaldo.

Very rarely is a knockout tournament ever won by the squad with the most talented players

 

[Wozza]

It's all about the culture.

This article from Oliver Kay explains it brilliantly...

https://theathletic.com/2690012/202...e-and-restored-a-long-lost-sense-of-identity/

Throughout Euro 2020 and indeed the 2018 World Cup, Southgate has kept referencing the values and principles of a tribe, understanding what it represents historically and how the way they perform in the present will impact on how the future of the tribe. “There is a longer history than just us, so we must have the humility to recognise where we are in that journey, but also to make the most of that moment and leave the team in a better place than we found it,” he said before this tournament began.

That is the essence of whakapapa. As Eastwood puts it, “Whakapapa points a finger at us and tells us, ‘You will not be judged by your money or celebrity or sense of pride. You will be judged by what you did for the tribe’.”

And for once, it is possible to read those words, in connection with the England men’s football team, and find that they chime with what is happening on the pitch.