[Albion] So what's going to happen to the 'V'

[Nottseagull]

That looks more like the "Y" formation.

To match his underpants?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Our 4411 which is really 4231 works so so much better both in general and especially given the speed of our 1 and 1. Most of our goals are concede on the break so we need two holding midfielders. Plus 4231 allows the full backs to get forward so is also more attacking. It depends on two wingers who can beat a man but also defend which we have in March AK and Jose (of last season when fit). There is no room for Locadia or Ali J in that formation though.

I think you make a very good point about 4-4-1-1 being attacking with the right wingers and full backs. However, as you have said Locadia and Ali J don't really fit that formation (and not even convinced Andone suits 4-4-1-1). But the big worry for me is that we have to make a decision on the way ahead before the next round of recruitment, as for 4-4-1-1 we only have 3 wingers and no alternatives to Gross and Murray.

 

[Machiavelli]

What happened to the much vaunted “pressing” we were going to do this season?

Still waiting to see it

Man United at home is when I saw it. We won.

 

[Icy Gull]

Man United at home is when I saw it. We won.

Feck, I missed that game.

Did they actually need pressing, from what I saw on TV they were almost comatose.

Anyway, any idea why we stopped doing it?

 

[Perkino]

The problem with the V formation is the large gap between the fullbacks we have and the wide man in front of them. Our wide players spent too long pushing forward and didn't see it as their responsibility to help out the midfield so teams would break on us and exploit the space and our midfield was bypassed almost every attack.

A 4-4-1-1 gives us width, helps us retain possession and puts our most creative player in a dangerous space

 

[Easy 10]

Man United at home is when I saw it. We won.

Also saw it in the first half at home v Leicester, got a high press going, got in their faces and went in at half time leading 1-0 (against 10 men).

Naturally we spent the next 45 minutes camped deep in our own half, just trying to protect the 1-0. Until the inevitable happened.

 

[Machiavelli]

Also saw it in the first half at home v Leicester, got a high press going, got in their faces and went in at half time leading 1-0 (against 10 men).

Naturally we spent the next 45 minutes camped deep in our own half, just trying to protect the 1-0. Until the inevitable happened.

You're probably right about the first half, but I do have a certain sympathy for what went on in the second half. Pressing is energy-sapping and it's really difficult to maintain it for prolonged periods. This is especially the case with our players who don't tend to be as physically brilliant as others. Firmino, for instance, is the player who performs the most intensive sprints in 90 minutes and there's a reason why he's at Liverpool and not us. All I'm saying effectively is it's not just better technique, vision, speed of thought, etc that money buys you, but also better athletes.

 

[Machiavelli]

The problem with the V formation is the large gap between the fullbacks we have and the wide man in front of them. Our wide players spent too long pushing forward and didn't see it as their responsibility to help out the midfield so teams would break on us and exploit the space and our midfield was bypassed almost every attack.

A 4-4-1-1 gives us width, helps us retain possession and puts our most creative player in a dangerous space

You also need to factor in which wide player. Solly is our most disciplined (at times to the infuriating neglect of attacking ambition and belief). Knockaert probably covers the most distance, but it doesn't tend to be in a disciplined manner.

 

[Easy 10]

You're probably right about the first half, but I do have a certain sympathy for what went on in the second half. Pressing is energy-sapping and it's really difficult to maintain it for prolonged periods. This is especially the case with our players who don't tend to be as physically brilliant as others. Firmino, for instance, is the player who performs the most intensive sprints in 90 minutes and there's a reason why he's at Liverpool and not us. All I'm saying effectively is it's not just better technique, vision, speed of thought, etc that money buys you, but also better athletes.

There may be sometihng in that, but I think the fact that we were playing against 10 men for over an hour after Maddison got his 2nd yellow for diving should have mitigated that.

Whether we came back out under direct instruction from CH to "hold back, don't commit, just keep it tight, protect what we have", or whether the players decided to do exactly that off their own backs we won't ever know for sure. But I remember being utterly AGHAST at our insipid 2nd half display, and the binning off of two precious points. It felt like a defeat.

 

[Machiavelli]

There may be sometihng in that, but I think the fact that we were playing against 10 men for over an hour after Maddison got his 2nd yellow for diving should have mitigated that.

Whether we came back out under direct instruction from CH to "hold back, don't commit, just keep it tight, protect what we have", or whether the players decided to do exactly that off their own backs we won't ever know for sure. But I remember being utterly AGHAST at our insipid 2nd half display, and the binning off of two precious points. It felt like a defeat.

Oh, you're right about that, although I was speaking more generally than just the Leicester game.

 

[Nixonator]

There may be sometihng in that, but I think the fact that we were playing against 10 men for over an hour after Maddison got his 2nd yellow for diving should have mitigated that.

Whether we came back out under direct instruction from CH to "hold back, don't commit, just keep it tight, protect what we have", or whether the players decided to do exactly that off their own backs we won't ever know for sure. But I remember being utterly AGHAST at our insipid 2nd half display, and the binning off of two precious points. It felt like a defeat.

Not quite as aghast as I was in a similar situation away to Villa before the inevitable.

 

[Perkino]

You also need to factor in which wide player. Solly is our most disciplined (at times to the infuriating neglect of attacking ambition and belief). Knockaert probably covers the most distance, but it doesn't tend to be in a disciplined manner.

Knockaert has done his fair share of defending from a wide position, the change of formation has changed his focus and he has noticeably been higher up the pitch yet ironically made less runs in behind the opposition defence

 

[Knocky's Nose]

I thought it was thisView attachment 108622

That 'V' probably cost about £600. It's Gucci.

 

[Bob!]

View attachment 108629

haha!

Yes, that's the way we play it, only one going in the right direction!

 

[WATFORD zero]

You're probably right about the first half, but I do have a certain sympathy for what went on in the second half. Pressing is energy-sapping and it's really difficult to maintain it for prolonged periods. This is especially the case with our players who don't tend to be as physically brilliant as others. Firmino, for instance, is the player who performs the most intensive sprints in 90 minutes and there's a reason why he's at Liverpool and not us. All I'm saying effectively is it's not just better technique, vision, speed of thought, etc that money buys you, but also better athletes.

It was something I posted about in another thread. City and Liverpool's players seem to be able to maintain the 'press' for longer than other teams. Does more money buy you better genetic athletes, or is it coaching, motivation and competition ?

There is no doubt that the top team's players statistically work harder, but why ?

 

[Hugo Rune]

Credit to the club for trying to develop and improve. But I think we need to go back to
4-4-1-1.

We’ll need a new speedy right back, a replacement for Pröpper and a back up for Groß if Mac Allister’s paperwork doesn’t make the grade. Add to that a new star striker and maybe a couple from the U23s and we could have a good stab at top 15 next season if we survive.

Turning the 4-4-1-1 into a 2-3-5 (Groß drops deep) when attacking with marauding full backs (like Liverpool) could be the answer to some more progressive football.

 

[Machiavelli]

It was something I posted about in another thread. City and Liverpool's players seem to be able to maintain the 'press' for longer than other teams. Does more money buy you better genetic athletes, or is it coaching, motivation and competition ?

There is no doubt that the top team's players statistically work harder, but why ?

It's obviously not just one thing (we can avoid mono-causal nonsense) but, despite the quality of the coaching and sports science, I think the ability of the top clubs to buy better athletes outweighs this.
Guardiola said something a while back that's stuck in my head (that's only partially related to the above). The top clubs can buy the best players with the best technical and physical attributes and, increasingly, there is less differentiation between these qualities (this might be the effect of sports science). Key to providing this differentiation is the players' decision-making on the pitch, which is where top coaching also comes in. You can see it in the players that Guardiola has bought, how he's developed them and how intelligent they are -- Bernardo Silva, De Bruyne and, especially, Sterling.

 

[Bladders]

We can play 442, 4411, 433, the V or the Christmas pudding with Stephens as the six pence, it makes no difference as they all end up like this during the match.

EDIT: I've mad a slight schoolboy error here as our defensive line looks too high

 

[darkwolf666]

I thought our formation recently was more like this

- - - - - - - - - -
-
Obviously Ryan should be standing in the middle of the goal, but may have more luck at left back!

 

[WATFORD zero]

We can play 442, 4411, 433, the V or the Christmas pudding with Stephens as the six pence, it makes no difference as they all end up like this during the match.

EDIT: I've mad a slight schoolboy error here as our defensive line looks too high

View attachment 108687

No wonder FFS Murray is always offside