Shootings and explosion in Paris!

[wellquickwoody]

I really don't understand the point that you're making, or why you're trying to twist my logic. My only comment was to say that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are not extremists (which is a pretty obvious point that you'd have to be a brainless moron to disagree with).

OK, I'll risk it.

Whilst I agree that only a miniscule percentage of Muslims would actually take part in terror attacks there are some disturbing numbers being floated around about how some Muslims feel about the West. A participant on the BBC coverage of the Paris attacks who was a security/military/intelligence expert gave the opinion that a substantial minority of British Muslims sympathised with Islamic extremism, the figures quoted were 15 - 20%. I will try to check back and give name and time etc but right now that is all I have.

If those numbers are correct then we need to reassess our strategy.

 

[Soulman]

To be honest, I'm quite happy for Christians to get on with their beliefs and for Muslims to get on with theirs too. When you're talking about extremists, it is such a tiny proportion of Muslims - about 0.001%.

This is worth a read, worth a minute of your time in my opinion, it also is close to my view on things but hopefully coming from someone with more knowledge than me.

"A German's View on Islam - worth reading because this is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist--a man, whose family was German aristocracy prior t...o World War II, and owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of our world had come.

My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual, prior to World War II, was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians, most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt. Yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Islamic prayers have now been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?! To whom? Not to the vast majority of Canadians!).

The Islamic way is only peaceful until the fanatics move in.

In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food products in your local supermarket. Foods on aircraft have the halal emblem, just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding throughout the world.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of ?no-go? zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuses to acknowledge British law.

As for we who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Anyone who doubts the seriousness of this issue and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

 

[Hastings gull]

An article I have just read, quite interesting,www.independent.co.uk
We must destroy Isis but not play into their hands – the wrong response would create countless new recruits

The worst response to a tragic and horrific attack like that on Paris last night would be one that strengthens Isis. When President Francois Hollande said we are at war with Isis today, he was right. But it is a war we can only win if we don’t get provoked into the response they want from us. The response they expect.

Parisians are sadly becoming all too used to this kind of violence. It was only in January this year when the attack on Charlie Hebdo left most of its staff dead or maimed. And now this, an attack so ferocious and brutal that Paris may take years to recover. Seven years ago, to this very month, gunmen also ran amok in Mumbai and unleashed terror that was to last four days and claim 164 lives. This is global war, and and it could be very well be a generational war.

Read more

As I watched the horror unfold on TV last night, I was asked: “why are they doing this?” - which seems like a naive question but is actually an excellent place to start from. If Isis were indeed behind this (they have now claimed responsibility) - why would they do this?

Isis are doing this to provoke us. They want us to attack them on their soil: in Iraq and Syria. They want to see western troops back in those lands because the chaos and backlash that would create would play directly into their hands. It would create countless new recruits for them.

Isis are also doing this to create division and exploit tension in our modern multi-racial societies. They want western Muslims to feel unwanted in their homes in Europe, and to instead join them in Syria. They want western Muslims to feel that they can only truly be at home at the Isis Caliphate.

And Isis want to see western countries become closed, authoritarian societies where we live in fear of them and their capabilities. They hate what we stand for and they want to provoke us into changing that.

Isis are doing this to provoke us. They want us to attack them on their soil: in Iraq and Syria



The temptation to react to Isis in the way they want will be strong in the aftermath of Paris. Francois Hollande says our response to Isis must be “merciless” - and I agree - but it must also be strategic so we don’t fall into their trap.

We must stand for our values: liberalism, secularism, openness, free speech and equality: those are the values we swear by and those are the values we must now strain every sinew to live by.

When Chancellor Angela Merkel said Germany would offer shelter to Syrian refugees earlier this year, Isis released a dozen videos in panic, encouraging Syrians to come back. But the damage was done. Syrians saw that Europe was more willing to offer them refuge and dignity than many Muslim states. That they were not heading to the Isis Caliphate was a slap in the face.

The attacks in Beirut and Paris is their response. They want us to brush away humanity and compassion with suspicion and division. By following that script we do exactly what Isis want us to do. The destruction of the Isis Caliphate must happen, but it must come from a Muslim-led force. After all, ordinary Muslims have been its biggest victims.

That isn’t to say we must do nothing. We have to challenge Islamism and its sympathisers in the west, and we have to stand for our values. There’s also no doubt we must win the war against Isis. But we cannot win it if we’re provoked into the response they want. We cannot win with a response that strengthens them rather than weakens

After the January attacks, a similar post was put on here, saying that to fall to their level would be counter-productive, and lo and behold, up it comes again. I can certainly see the logic of not engaging in tit for tat atrocities, which will only polarise attitudes -if you are the victim of a random attack, causing you injuries, you are far less likely to view that sect, or whatever, with the same degree of benign neutrality that you might have done hitherto. The Bosnian war showed how communities can turn on each other who had previously lived in relative peace, if perhaps uneasily. Before the rise of the Nazis, the Jews in Germany had a much better time of it than their counterparts in, say, Poland, and how that changed in 5 years.
However, life is not always this simple, and there is an end to everyone's patience, and in this respect, I fear for the future, because I suspect that we will eventually reach for the military solution, there being, as we in the West would see it, no real alternative to dealing with fanatics who hate us and have no real intention to peacefully co-exist with infidels. Notice how vague the article then becomes when the strategy to stand up to ISIS is covered, or rather, not covered.

 

[Hastings gull]

This is worth a read, worth a minute of your time in my opinion, it also is close to my view on things but hopefully coming from someone with more knowledge than me.

"A German's View on Islam - worth reading because this is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist--a man, whose family was German aristocracy prior t...o World War II, and owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of our world had come.

My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual, prior to World War II, was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians, most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt. Yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Islamic prayers have now been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?! To whom? Not to the vast majority of Canadians!).

The Islamic way is only peaceful until the fanatics move in.

In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food products in your local supermarket. Foods on aircraft have the halal emblem, just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding throughout the world.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of ?no-go? zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuses to acknowledge British law.

As for we who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Anyone who doubts the seriousness of this issue and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

Yes, we hear a lot about how the majority disapproves of such atrocities, and I don't doubt for one moment this is true. But history tells us that a determined, violent, and well organised minority can soon take over, as the majority simply want to get on with their lives and are unlikely to "get involved". My uncle in Germany in the 50s always used to tell me that virtually no one wanted to go to war in Russia, or anywhere else, but eventually they did with a vengeance all the same. Sadly, claiming that the majority disapproves, whilst doubtless strictly speaking true, does not mean that community cohesion will improve.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

OK, I'll risk it.

Whilst I agree that only a miniscule percentage of Muslims would actually take part in terror attacks there are some disturbing numbers being floated around about how some Muslims feel about the West. A participant on the BBC coverage of the Paris attacks who was a security/military/intelligence expert gave the opinion that a substantial minority of British Muslims sympathised with Islamic extremism, the figures quoted were 15 - 20%. I will try to check back and give name and time etc but right now that is all I have.

If those numbers are correct then we need to reassess our strategy.

...and do what? You see it is very easy to bandy around figures, especially after such a terrible tragedy that has happened, and will continue to happen, but what do you propose....send the army into Bradford or Luton and ask a Muslim off the street if he/ she sympathises with Isis and then what, shoot them, deport them....to where....what if they are born here, like the 7/7 bombers? If you were to deport them to say Iraq, who is to say that will not just fuel their grievance?

You have to make sure that the 99.9999999% of Muslims can, through the mosques and schools defeat the argument and radicalisation that is going on and make sure the spooks are given the resources to keep tabs on the rogues.

All it takes is one michael Ryan, remember him? And a massacre can be triggered. He wasn't on the radar, nor that nutter at dumblaine.

 

[Megazone]

Sorry but while these crimes are shocking they are shocking because they are rare here (no one bothers showing the latest Baghdad bombings on UK telly, did you know 46 people died in suicide bombings in Beirut on Thursday?). I want to live in a liberal social, secular democracy and the clowns who ordered these killings don't. If we suspend any single part of our rule of law they've won.

What is it they win?

 

[Hillian1]

What is it they win?

Speedboat.

 

[Megazone]

Speedboat.

Just the one?

 

[Soulman]

Sorry but while these crimes are shocking they are shocking because they are rare here (no one bothers showing the latest Baghdad bombings on UK telly, did you know 46 people died in suicide bombings in Beirut on Thursday?). I want to live in a liberal social, secular democracy and the clowns who ordered these killings don't. If we suspend any single part of our rule of law they've won.

Both these sets of bombings were carried out by ISIS.....so what is your point. I daresay if every atrocious act by these sickos was shown on UK tv we would have the likes of you preaching that our media is demonising Muslims. Lets face it sad as it is these internal wars in the Middle East countries have been going on for many many many years. The bombings etc in Europe is fairly recent and quite rightly gets more coverage.

 

[wellquickwoody]

...and do what? You see it is very easy to bandy around figures, especially after such a terrible tragedy that has happened, and will continue to happen, but what do you propose....send the army into Bradford or Luton and ask a Muslim off the street if he/ she sympathises with Isis and then what, shoot them, deport them....to where....what if they are born here, like the 7/7 bombers? If you were to deport them to say Iraq, who is to say that will not just fuel their grievance?

You have to make sure that the 99.9999999% of Muslims can, through the mosques and schools defeat the argument and radicalisation that is going on and make sure the spooks are given the resources to keep tabs on the rogues.

All it takes is one michael Ryan, remember him? And a massacre can be triggered. He wasn't on the radar, nor that nutter at dumblaine.

We stop the hate preachers is a starting point, we stop building mosques, we stop mass immigration from non EU countries, we stop marches/demos that question our western culture, we stop the PC culture which allowed the child abuse in Rotherham. Basically we become LESS tolerant, some will say that is letting the terrorists win, I say it is saving lives.

You are right that you cannot stop every lunatic. But a lone madman is usually unable to kill and injure hundreds of innocents, 7/7, Madrid, Paris and of course 9/11, all committed by groups not individuals. When was the last terror outrage committed by a group of non-Muslim attackers? A honest question as I can only come up with the Irish and Basque answers which are beginning to fade into history.

The answers are not easy to find, but that does not mean we should not look for them.

 

[8ace]

Is Auteuil still on tomorrow

Been cancelled

 

[beorhthelm]

...A honest question as I can only come up with the Irish and Basque answers which are beginning to fade into history.

its odd how you can recall those two groups let not make the leap to realise the similarities. should we round up and shoot or intern all Irish republicans and Basque seperatists, just in case they start up again? as for non-muslim atrocities, how about the Swedish chap and the London nail bomber? the new serect police would soon be hunting down everyone who voiced anti-gay sentiment, a problem for many of those anti-muslim. PETA are known to try a few bombings, so they'll be in the frame too. Scottish nationalist might be next, or anyone who goes against the state. i go to far deliberatly to show where this goes. it does not stop at Muslims, it attacks everything we are for.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

a lone madman is usually unable to kill and injure hundreds of innocent

This new rock concert model could achieve this quite easily.

 

[wellquickwoody]

as for non-muslim atrocities, how about the Swedish chap and the London nail bomber?.

Both lone wolf attacks by fruitloops, no back up or support, no co ordination, one off atrocities that it is almost impossible to plan for. The Islamic extremist campaign has repeatedly attacked non believers, and is often highly organised. The two issues are not comparable.

 

[wellquickwoody]

This new rock concert model could achieve this quite easily.

Even in this case there was more than one attacker at the concert venue. I am not saying it is not possible, but a lone attacker is likely to be overcome before killing hundreds, suicide bombers are a very different problem mind.

 

[Nibble]

There some people on here really tying themselves in knots to make out they have the answer to it all or know the cause . Be honest, it's ****ing terrible and even the greatest minds on the globe don't have the answers to the questions.

 

[beorhthelm]

Both lone wolf attacks by fruitloops, no back up or support, no co ordination, one off atrocities that it is almost impossible to plan for.

as are islamic extremist attacks - both one off and impossible to plan against. these groups are not as organised as some would like to think, otherwise where is the systematic campaign. it was only 20 years ago the Irish and Basques where engaged in regular actions.

Even in this case there was more than one attacker at the concert venue. I am not saying it is not possible, but a lone attacker is likely to be overcome before killing hundreds, suicide bombers are a very different problem mind.

ahem, two examples proving this assumption wrong already given. countless examples in US and other nations.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Both these sets of bombings were carried out by ISIS.....so what is your point. I daresay if every atrocious act by these sickos was shown on UK tv we would have the likes of you preaching that our media is demonising Muslims. Lets face it sad as it is these internal wars in the Middle East countries have been going on for many many many years. The bombings etc in Europe is fairly recent and quite rightly gets more coverage.

We were discussing the premise of "disappearing" people in the UK and changing our laws so they could be interred without evidence. Not only did internment work SHOCKINGLY badly in Northern Ireland, it is very easy to "disappear" people in somewhere lawless like Beirut or Baghdad. Has it stopped the violence? No it hasn't.

Road deaths in France rose 5 percent in 2014. The total was MASSIVELY higher than the Paris death toll.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20141230/road-deaths-expected-to-rise-by-five-percent

Should they start banging up Citroen drivers who look like they might be about to drive a bit dangerously?

 

[Publius Ovidius]

We stop the hate preachers is a starting point, we stop building mosques, we stop mass immigration from non EU countries, we stop marches/demos that question our western culture, we stop the PC culture which allowed the child abuse in Rotherham. Basically we become LESS tolerant, some will say that is letting the terrorists win, I say it is saving lives.

You are right that you cannot stop every lunatic. But a lone madman is usually unable to kill and injure hundreds of innocents, 7/7, Madrid, Paris and of course 9/11, all committed by groups not individuals. When was the last terror outrage committed by a group of non-Muslim attackers? A honest question as I can only come up with the Irish and Basque answers which are beginning to fade into history.

The answers are not easy to find, but that does not mean we should not look for them.

Erm the guy in Norway? How do you mean stop building mosques? So you punish every single Muslim by refusing them places of worship. I suppose you will be banning the Islamic. religion next....where do you stop then? Well hitler killed millions and millions and he was a supposed Christian. The crusaders massacred thousands of Muslims and Israelites, the Spanish conquisatadors, Christians. Wiped out South American civilisations...

..it never stops...that is how humans interact with each other. Bleak isn't it!

 

[Soulman]

We were discussing the premise of "disappearing" people in the UK and changing our laws so they could be interred without evidence. Not only did internment work SHOCKINGLY badly in Northern Ireland, it is very easy to "disappear" people in somewhere lawless like Beirut or Baghdad. Has it stopped the violence? No it hasn't.

Road deaths in France rose 5 percent in 2014. The total was MASSIVELY higher than the Paris death toll.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20141230/road-deaths-expected-to-rise-by-five-percent

Should they start banging up Citroen drivers who look like they might be about to drive a bit dangerously?

No, my reply was to your quote "Sorry but while these crimes are shocking they are shocking because they are rare here (no one bothers showing the latest Baghdad bombings on UK telly, did you know 46 people died in suicide bombings in Beirut on Thursday?)".....i pointed out that these atrocities were by ISIS...you have veered over to what you feel are comparable deaths, such as road accidents in a country like others who have millions of car drivers, i find the comparison lame and insensitive, but then you can obviously find many other cases where there have been more than the fatalities in Paris a couple of days ago, although not good comparisons in my opinion.