Safe Standing at the AMEX: Yes or No?

[teaboy]

-Standing isn't illegal, but it is against the ground regulations.
-Expensive or cheap is relative. I couldn't afford to replace the seats, but I'm not tony bloom/brighton and hove albion (with their 8m losses)
-Increased capacity won't happen because, according to Barber, capacity isn't about number of seats you can fit, but the width of the exits and such.
-Same number of seats + cheaper prices = less revenue, in an age of ffp that isn't sensible business.
-My reading of the taylor report suggests that hillsborough wasn't caused by terracing or policing but by culture and ingrained attitudes that saw fans treated as subhuman, and that the treatment of fans like this, led to them acting sub human (part of this is the lack of comfort and facilities, example given in the report including urinating against the wall).

Why would it be any cheaper?

 

[martin tyler]

In a day where we use electronic cards and barcoded tickets to get into the ground safe standing should be made an option. Issues of over crowding are no longer present as it is almost impossible to get into a ground without a ticket. Having watched a Dortmand game in Germany not so long ago the safe standing works well and the pricing is a lot cheaper at 14 euros on the day which allows a wider selection of people to attend.This creates a fantastic atmosphere and gives fans who want to stand that option and those that don't still have a choice of sitting. If the south and the north were safe standing and east and west sitting you could accommodate both home and away fans into this. Let's be honest not that many away fans are sitting anyway where ever you go. Greater revenues, bigger crowds, better value for supporters and most importantly less conflict and more time enjoying the beautiful game.

 

[drew]

In a day where we use electronic cards and barcoded tickets to get into the ground safe standing should be made an option. Issues of over crowding are no longer present as it is almost impossible to get into a ground without a ticket. Having watched a Dortmand game in Germany not so long ago the safe standing works well and the pricing is a lot cheaper at 14 euros on the day which allows a wider selection of people to attend.This creates a fantastic atmosphere and gives fans who want to stand that option and those that don't still have a choice of sitting. If the south and the north were safe standing and east and west sitting you could accommodate both home and away fans into this. Let's be honest not that many away fans are sitting anyway where ever you go. Greater revenues, bigger crowds, better value for supporters and most importantly less conflict and more time enjoying the beautiful game.

Why do you think it is only 14 euros to get in. Isn't the German model based on the fact that those in the seats are subsidising the cheaper terracing. If the people that want to stand at the Amex were prepared to fund the construction costs, legal costs etc through increased ticket prices over the next 5 years then I don't see a problem but you all want TB to fund it just so you can stand and pay less to get in!!!

 

[c0lz]

15% of 450 NSCers who bothered to vote, not 15% of 25,000ish that turn up every game.

It may not be 100 percent correct but gives a general account, aren't polls carried out like in By-elections by asking x amount of voters how they going to vote then they project the out come.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Out of interest, in your opinion, had the Leppings Lane been all seater and everyone with a ticket had an allocated seat, irrespective of the decisions made by the Police leading up to the tragedy, do you think 96 people would have died?

You cannot take the decisions made by the police on that day out of the equation when asking that question. They along with Sheffield City Council and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club played a big part in that disaster.
Hillsborough happened due to extremely poor crowd control allied with poor ground design. Combine this with a council who shouldn't have passed the ground fit to stage football matches you had a recipe for disaster.
If you'd had seats in the Leppings Lane end paddock, padlocked fences pitch side and let the same amount of people in from the top of the stand downward into a fully seated area you still would've had deaths.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Standing in football grounds in the UK was made illegal after the Hillsborough disaster of 1990. This law would have to be changed before the Club could introduce standing in the North Stand. It would also be expensive for the club to alter the seats to safe standing ones, and put in the rails. The club would also have to charge cheaper ticket prices and that would affect its profits, unless they would be able to cram in more people for standing, than they would for sitting. If the safe standing seats are one-to-one, the club is hardly going to reduce the ticket prices which would affect its profits.

Wrong! Terraces are still allowed in the bottom two divisions of English professional football.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Why do you think it is only 14 euros to get in. Isn't the German model based on the fact that those in the seats are subsidising the cheaper terracing. If the people that want to stand at the Amex were prepared to fund the construction costs, legal costs etc through increased ticket prices over the next 5 years then I don't see a problem but you all want TB to fund it just so you can stand and pay less to get in!!!

Actually no, that isn't the case in Germany. It's on average 20-25euro to stand. Germany just never had the incredible price rises that we have had. Safe standing in Germany is not what makes going to games cheaper. The whole model of the league and wages and tv rights and ownership of the clubs has led to huge increases in attendances and also a steady but gentle price rise, unlike that here. Football all over Europe is cheaper than here, not just Germany.
Construction cost? So replacing the seats with rail seats cost how much? With absolutley no need to adjust the concrete terrace apart from removal of the existing seat bolts and installing the brackets for the standing rails? Some German clubs move their safe standing and seats around in a matter of a couple of weeks. IF and a big IF, the Albion would then increase capacity as a result of installing safe standing in the north, then they might need to convert more toilets and maybe need more mobile kiosks. The costs are minimal and there is such a demand to stand, you would not need to drop ticket prices.
Why are you so against this? We should have the right to choose to stand or sit. This situation of sometimes enforcing the sit down rule and then sometimes not is daft. Allowing away fans to persistently stand throughout the whole game is daft, the rule of all seater stadia is daft.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Wrong! Terraces are still allowed in the bottom two divisions of English professional football.

And in the championship with Peterborough.

 

[HovaGirl]

Costs would be fairly minimal. The safe standing can be bolted in instead of seats. Its not hard, it could be done in a few days i would have thought.

And what about the labour charges for a few days? What about the costs of the new seats and the bars? And what about the waste of money spent on the posh seats that the North Stand football snobs refuse to sit on?

 

[teaboy]

Why do you think it is only 14 euros to get in. Isn't the German model based on the fact that those in the seats are subsidising the cheaper terracing. If the people that want to stand at the Amex were prepared to fund the construction costs, legal costs etc through increased ticket prices over the next 5 years then I don't see a problem but you all want TB to fund it just so you can stand and pay less to get in!!!

It's also priced to account for the larger attendances possible from increased capacity of standing - which isn't possible at the Amex.

I'd love to have safe standing in the North Stand with no reduction of ticket price. The capacity remains the same, the income remains the same. The cost of the conversion would need to be met by the club though, and I understand why they would be reluctant to do so at the moment. The over-riding issue for me is that people want to be allowed to stand up at football. Safe Standing in a select area allows this. It removes confusion over the 'last 4 rows' promise and removes conflict with the stewards - it might even make stewarding easier as there would be less conflict between fans. The atmosphere is likely to be improved (not that it's bad now).

So the only barriers are initial cost to the club (not sure how much), ground regulation changes (not sure of the cost, but more support from more clubs would spread it) and the will of the club to be involved in the project.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Why would it be any cheaper?

The price would be the same , Mr Barber has presumed that fans standing up would want a cheaper ticket as part of the argument to maintain the status quo.

 

[HovaGirl]

And given that it is now proved that the disaster was not caused by terracing but by criminal negligence backed up by police and media lies, a terrace ban no longer has any moral or legal justification. THe special nature of the Albion's situation having just built a new stadium is a different matter, but not an insoluable one.

Regardless of what caused the disaster, it still affects the current law. By law, neither Brighton, nor any other UK club is permitted to have standing areas for watching football. Brighton turned a blind eye to the "back four rows" when the stadium first opened, but that is being abused by those further down the North Stand, without thought to whoever may be sitting behind them, devoid of a view. The club, with its eye on the Premier League, is trying to curb that abuse by making examples of people standing further down the North Stand.

Until the law is changed, North Stand ST holders will just have to lump it.

To have your voice heard by the Government, rather than by a steward just doing his job as the law demands, you could sign this e-petition:

Safe Standing in the Premiership and Championship that follows the German Model - e-petitions

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

And what about the labour charges for a few days? What about the costs of the new seats and the bars? And what about the waste of money spent on the posh seats that the North Stand football snobs refuse to sit on?

We can always sell the posh seats , Wembley have the same spec for their top price seats.

 

[HovaGirl]

Wrong! Terraces are still allowed in the bottom two divisions of English professional football.

We are not in the bottom two divisions.

 

[Captain Sensible]

We are not in the bottom two divisions.

Peterborough
Point being its not illegal.

 

[Captain Sensible]

And what about the labour charges for a few days? What about the costs of the new seats and the bars? And what about the waste of money spent on the posh seats that the North Stand football snobs refuse to sit on?

Ohh, massive! Don't be daft, how about the labour charges to move 1000 seats for the Arsenal game. The seats we have have a re sell value and also some can be kept as replacements for old seats over time.
Your arguments are just now about how much it would cost for changing seats to rail seats?
Please explain why are are against this?

 

[teaboy]

And what about the labour charges for a few days? What about the costs of the new seats and the bars? And what about the waste of money spent on the posh seats that the North Stand football snobs refuse to sit on?

What about choice? I have never had, or will ever have lager at the Amex. Buying it in is a waste of money. However, there's a demand for it by other people, so why not allow people to pick and choose?

The price would be the same , Mr Barber has presumed that fans standing up would want a cheaper ticket as part of the argument to maintain the status quo.

The same assumption of many people on this thread.

Regardless of what caused the disaster, it still affects the current law. By law, neither Brighton, nor any other UK club is permitted to have standing areas for watching football. Brighton turned a blind eye to the "back four rows" when the stadium first opened, but that is being abused by those further down the North Stand, without thought to whoever may be sitting behind them, devoid of a view. The club, with its eye on the Premier League, is trying to curb that abuse by making examples of people standing further down the North Stand.

Until the law is changed, North Stand ST holders will just have to lump it.

To have your voice heard by the Government, rather than by a steward just doing his job as the law demands, you could sign this e-petition:

Safe Standing in the Premiership and Championship that follows the German Model - e-petitions

How about we sort out the issue then? If people are being stopped from watching football by people standing in front of them we could, maybe, have an area that people have to stand in and an area that people have to sit down in. The best of both worlds for everyone, no?

 

[HovaGirl]

Peterborough
Point being its not illegal.

Sign this then:

Safe Standing in the Premiership and Championship that follows the German Model - e-petitions

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

We are not in the bottom two divisions.

You never mentioned divisions in your post you said:

"Standing in football grounds in the UK was made illegal after the Hillsborough disaster of 1990."

As others have said it is not illegal to stand at football matches in the UK but if you do at particular grounds whose safety certificate does not allow it then that club could have their certificate revoked by the local council.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Sign this then:

Safe Standing in the Premiership and Championship that follows the German Model - e-petitions

Done, now you!