Rugby question for London Irish

[Brovion]

Mr Irish I'd always assumed that the London 'exiles' teams (London Irish, Scottish and Welsh) were just that - teams for exiles. However looking at the TV yesterday it struck me that a goodly percentage of the London 'Irish' players were a lot less Irish than Tony Cascarino.

Was there ever an Irish qualification needed? Or was it something that was discarded with the advent of professionalism?

 

[Seagull over NZ]

Was chatting to a bloke about that the other day. In the amateur days this was the case but not for a few years now. They are a club now who have t survive and so had to open their doors. I would imagine though that the Scotttish and Welsh would retain that status more as they are not 100% professional.

 

[Gwylan]

I was a member of London Welsh for many years and there was a real Welsh feel to the team and the membership. That all changed with the advent of professionalism; the price of membership trebled overnight and a load of overpaid mercenaries were signed up.

I still go back occasionally and there are still Welsh touches (the loudspeaker announcements are still given in Welsh first, for example) but the team seemed to be Aussies, Kiwis, Yarpies etc (there was even a Frenchman).

I think the same has happened with all the exiles teams - the notion of playing for fun has long gone.

And remember, these clubs were set up to give London-based Celts a home from home. These days, with the advent of cars and cheap transport there's no reason for giving a taste of home - they can sample the real thing quite easily.

 

[London Irish]

Brovian, your answer is broadly correct, rugby went professional in 1995-6, but that just quickened a process that was already well on the way at London Irish anyway.

The great waves of Irish migration in the 1950s-60s-70s to Britain is now long over, thankfully Ireland is now a prosperous country and its young people no longer have to emigrate to find work. That has meant London Irish as a sporting club has had to adapt and attract those with very little or no Irish blood at all. The alternative would have been to become an ageing Irish ghetto, which would have been very depressing.

The older Irish supporters have made a great effort to welcome in younger English fans and this has been a big success at Reading, where now our average 10-12K support is roughly 50/50 split between English and Irish.

Much like Celtic with Protestants, there has never been any ban on English or other nationalities playing for or managing London Irish, it has always happened. We gave Sir Clive Woodward his start as a top-level coach.

Professionalism just rapidly increased that process, as the Irish Rugby Football Union wanted most of its internationals based at home. That meant London Irish had to recruit a lot of Boks, Aussies and Kiwis to fill the gap.

The LI team you would have saw play on Sky yesterday had roughly half with Irish blood, 3 Ireland-born lads and four with Irish parents, including Justin Bishop, the 30-cap Ireland international from Crawley Down. To have nearly half the team Irish is not bad going I think, compares well, say, with the number of Sussex players playing for the Albion.

But of course we still get a lot of pisstaking from rivals clubs - the "not, nots" (not London, not Irish), Reading Afrikaaners, etc - all good clean fun.

I am proud of London Irish because I think we are a role model of how an essentially immigrant organisation has both tried to stay loyal to our cultural heritage while doing our best to integrate in the host country and make ourselves as open as possible to English fans.

We offer English people a different experience and many of them have learned the Irish songs and come back for more.

There has been a big debate begun in the broadsheets in the past week about "multiculturalism", begun by Tony Blair and Trevor Phillips, the Blairite head of the Commission for Racial Equality. They appear now to say that multiculturalism has failed because it leads to young British Asians joining up with terrorist organisations.

I'm sorry, I beg to differ. Irish people weren't bombing mainland Britain up to 10 years ago because of the excesses of multiculturalism and too much Irish Studies courses at the local Poly. It was because there existed a terrible political situation, and thankfully that has now begun to be addressed by a political process, long way to go, but still better than the dark days of the past.

There is a clear parallel with these young Asian lads. They are going off the rails because someone is giving them easy solutions to some very bad problems in the world. The answer is a political process that sorts out these terrible problems rather than bringing Norman Tebbit back to start interrogating everyone about which national team they support.

Sorry, Brovian, that answer strayed a bit beyond rugby as I'm prone to do.

BTW, did everyone see that they are ending English-brewed Guinness, closing Park Royal and importing the Irish brew? I always preferred the watered down English stuff meself, so I must really be a Brit at heart.

 

[Brovion]

....Sorry, Brovian, that answer strayed a bit beyond rugby as I'm prone to do.

Ah but that's the Irish in you, can't shut you up once you start!

Thanks for the responses guys, I guessed that must have been the case at L.I. but I wonder if the Scots held on more to 'true' heritage? Or did they just bungle professionalism?

As you've taken it off-topic I agree with your comments on multi-culturtalism, the last thing I want is a 'Holiday Inn' Britain with everything the same everywhere.

 

[Jambo Seagull]

Thanks for the responses guys, I guessed that must have been the case at L.I. but I wonder if the Scots held on more to 'true' heritage? Or did they just bungle professionalism?

I think it was very much the latter. As I remember it London Scottish were taken over by some numpty who suggested merging them with Bristol to make Bristol Blues. I think he then pulled out and they merged with Richmond and London Irish. I think London Scottish has emerged in a kind of AFC Wimbledon stylee playing in the lower leagues on a par with London Welsh. I may be wrong in this but no doubt someone will correct me if I am.

 

[Gwylan]

I think it was very much the latter. As I remember it London Scottish were taken over by some numpty who suggested merging them with Bristol to make Bristol Blues. I think he then pulled out and they merged with Richmond and London Irish. I think London Scottish has emerged in a kind of AFC Wimbledon stylee playing in the lower leagues on a par with London Welsh. I may be wrong in this but no doubt someone will correct me if I am.

Apart from the dig at London Welsh, that's absolutely right.

London Scottish and Richmond kept hold of the ground after the 'merger' with London Irish and play in the London league, feeder leagues to the national league.

London Scottish won London 2 North and Richmond won London 2 South this season. Next season they both compete in London 1 and promotion to the national league follows.

London Welsh are currently 8th in National League First division. To say that they're on par with London Scottish is like saying that Crystal Palace are on par with AFC Wimbledon. Although now you mention it.....

 

[Jambo Seagull]

Gwylan, it wasn't meant as a dig. To be fair to London Welsh I think they probably did the sensible thing and decided that all out professionalism wasn't for them whereas London Scottish went for it and f***ed up big style.

My stepfather is a big rugby man who played for Swansea and Wales and he tells me that LW were the best club team in the 70s with JPR et al but that they were all Drs, dentists, lawyers etc who played it for the love of the game and weren't interested or didn't need to go down the all out professional route. As I understand it they have progressed very well in recent years but in an organic sort of way rather than the boom and bust ways of LS. Is this correct? I can't remember LW ever being in the top division since the dawn of professionalism, but I don't profess to be an expert..

 

[Normal Rob]

I still go back occasionally and there are still Welsh touches (the loudspeaker announcements are still given in Welsh first, for example) but the team seemed to be Aussies, Kiwis, Yarpies etc (there was even a Frenchman).


[/B]

but have they, horror of horrors, let an Englishman play yet?

 

[Gwylan]

Gwylan, it wasn't meant as a dig. To be fair to London Welsh I think they probably did the sensible thing and decided that all out professionalism wasn't for them whereas London Scottish went for it and f***ed up big style.

My stepfather is a big rugby man who played for Swansea and Wales and he tells me that LW were the best club team in the 70s with JPR et al but that they were all Drs, dentists, lawyers etc who played it for the love of the game and weren't interested or didn't need to go down the all out professional route. As I understand it they have progressed very well in recent years but in an organic sort of way rather than the boom and bust ways of LS. Is this correct? I can't remember LW ever being in the top division since the dawn of professionalism, but I don't profess to be an expert..

Sorry. I didn't mean that to come out as sharp as it did, it was meant to be humorous.

No, LW haven't been in the top division since the dawn of professionalism. When I started watching them in the mid-80s, they were in Division 5 and have, as you point out, climbed steadily. They were an awesome team in the 70s though.

I reckon that a couple of good players could get them promoted but I think they're trying to live within their means.

And yes, Normal Rob, plenty of Englishmen have played for them.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Is the Prince of Wales still the preferred London drinking establishment for Welsh exiles?

 

[Normal Rob]

my word - they'll be letting foreigners play for international side next!