Rather interesting programme about end of the '70's

[Seagull over Canaryland]

The '70s saw the start of a lot of the social and economic re-engineering that was largely a legacy of WWII which left the country almost bankrupt and most major industries were worn out, lacking investment and were hugely inefficient and producing uncompetitive products. OK we were on the 'winning' side in WWII but the irony is that the Germans and Japanese embraced the economic opportunities they were given and 'won' the peace.

It is one reason why we were unable to resist being drawn into the EEC. The UK received bailouts from the IMF on top of debts we were still paying to the US. It was unsustainable.

A big problem in the '70s was hugely overstaffed industries held back by powerful unions who regularly exercised their rights for disruption and all out strikes. It also coincided with fuel crises and 3 day weeks. The Labour govt under Callaghan was unable to tear itself away from the malaise and gifted the Tories the chance to let Mrs T wield the knife which she did with relish, well into the '80s. Sadly if she didn't do it then someone else would have to or the country would have finished imploding as we were heading for a Greek style meltdown, if not worse. But for North Sea oil and gas we probably would have sunk.

As a union member and official I had a very left wing outlook for a good part of my early working life but as a student of economics before that I could also see the need for change on a huge scale and that some pain was inevitable. I don't share the lefties demonising of Mrs. T. in her early years as PM, which frequently chooses to overlook what a mess Callaghan and the unions had made and were so inexorably linked that any meaningful progression under a Labour govt was impossible. It makes me smile to see Ed Milliband harking back to those days, albeit his vision is a shadow of what existed then.

 

[Questions]

Germany has very strong trade unions but also strong economic growth, as the unions work with management rather than fight them all the time.

The problem in the 70's was not the Unions per se, but the leadership, which was politically motivated rather than focussed on the long term interests of their members. Similarly management techniques employed by UK companies during the period were outdated and confrontational, with egos and being 'right' taking precedence over goalsetting and problem solving.

Thatcher succeeded because there was a vacuum where there should have been an opposition, and the only dissenting voices to her were Prince Charles and Spitting Image.

The right wing press told awful lies about the unions and the nationalised industries to sway the electorate and get Thatcher elected. Do you remember the News of the Screws expose on the sleeping night shift at British Leyland. I actually know the photographer who took the snaps that night and doctored it all to show them sleeping on the job. Complete fabrication.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Who said I had a monopoly...like you,I gave my opinion....is that allowed or do we all have to follow your left wing dogma? I'm more concerned that you have to resort to mudslinging to get your point across.

Oh behave. I did learn something from that show. Firstly...the right to buy, a flagship for Thatcherites, was a Labour idea which she stole and that, as minister for Education, she took down the grammar school system in favour of Comprehensives then cynically attacked Labour when the Tories were out of office for destroying the aspirations of bright kids.

Where does the cult of thatcher derive from? The Tories under Heath capitulated to the unions, we ended up with the three day week and the mass strikes that crippled the Labour government that tried to resist further surrenders. By the end of 1978 the Tories were able to walk into power with a country sick and tired of the unions and strikes and a mandate to thrash the reds within an inch of their lives.

I don't disagree that the unions had been using strikes to hold the country to ransom. I further agree that she did outthink, out strategise and faced them down which was the right thing to do.

What I don't accept is that her legacy is worth crowing about as she ended up undoing all the good she did in her first few years by imposing ideology on Britain which, ultimately, led to the fractured and greed ridden society which we have today.

Not really bothered whether you agree or not. The evidence is there for all to see every day of our lives.

Edit : I'm not particularly left wing btw. I am actually pretty right wing in my view of multiculturalism and big state nannyism. I am, though, sensible enough to spot wickedness in politics...Margaret Thatcher left this country morally and socially bankrupt. That's why I call her a bitch.

 

[skipper734]

I am of the opinion that we need more women in positions of power and heads of state. Which is why I get so baffled that the only one we've had in the UK was such a haridon. She was pretty much told what to do by her male cabinet though. They were the ones that told her to go to war in the falklands as it would guarantee another term in power, before that, no-matter how strong people think she was, or she retrospectively liked to make out, her opinion on the falklands was "Leave it, it's an island halfway around the worlf I'm not defending it" until she was told otherwise.

Having said that, Britain needed somebody to do summat in the 70's/80's.

You are rewriting history Nibble.

 

[Leighgull]

Oh behave. I did learn something from that show. Firstly...the right to buy, a flagship for Thatcherites, was a Labour idea which she stole and that, as minister for Education, she took down the grammar school system in favour of Comprehensives then cynically attacked Labour when the Tories were out of office for destroying the aspirations of bright kids.

Where does the cult of thatcher derive from? The Tories under Heath capitulated to the unions, we ended up with the three day week and the mass strikes that crippled the Labour government that tried to resist further surrenders. By the end of 1978 the Tories were able to walk into power with a country sick and tired of the unions and strikes and a mandate to thrash the reds within an inch of their lives.

I don't disagree that the unions had been using strikes to hold the country to ransom. I further agree that she did outthink, out strategise and faced them down which was the right thing to do.

What I don't accept is that her legacy is worth crowing about as she ended up undoing all the good she did in her first few years by imposing ideology on Britain which, ultimately, led to the fractured and greed ridden society which we have today.

Not really bothered whether you agree or not. The evidence is there for all to see every day of our lives.

Edit : I'm not particularly left wing btw. I am actually pretty right wing in my view of multiculturalism and big state nannyism. I am, though, sensible enough to spot wickedness in politics...Margaret Thatcher left this country morally and socially bankrupt. That's why I call her a bitch.

Hear ****ing Hear. I'm of the same mindset BH. You don't have to be Trotsky to realise that Mrs. Thatchers legacy is shameful.

 

[jakarta]

The '70s saw the start of a lot of the social and economic re-engineering that was largely a legacy of WWII which left the country almost bankrupt and most major industries were worn out, lacking investment and were hugely inefficient and producing uncompetitive products. OK we were on the 'winning' side in WWII but the irony is that the Germans and Japanese embraced the economic opportunities they were given and 'won' the peace.

It is one reason why we were unable to resist being drawn into the EEC. The UK received bailouts from the IMF on top of debts we were still paying to the US. It was unsustainable.

A big problem in the '70s was hugely overstaffed industries held back by powerful unions who regularly exercised their rights for disruption and all out strikes. It also coincided with fuel crises and 3 day weeks. The Labour govt under Callaghan was unable to tear itself away from the malaise and gifted the Tories the chance to let Mrs T wield the knife which she did with relish, well into the '80s. Sadly if she didn't do it then someone else would have to or the country would have finished imploding as we were heading for a Greek style meltdown, if not worse. But for North Sea oil and gas we probably would have sunk.

As a union member and official I had a very left wing outlook for a good part of my early working life but as a student of economics before that I could also see the need for change on a huge scale and that some pain was inevitable. I don't share the lefties demonising of Mrs. T. in her early years as PM, which frequently chooses to overlook what a mess Callaghan and the unions had made and were so inexorably linked that any meaningful progression under a Labour govt was impossible. It makes me smile to see Ed Milliband harking back to those days, albeit his vision is a shadow of what existed then.

Agree with all the above. People whinge about what we have had over the past few years but Jesus Googling Christ you should have lived through this period, the UK very nearly went down the plughole and one more Labour administration and we would have done....

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't disagree that the unions had been using strikes to hold the country to ransom. I further agree that she did outthink, out strategise and faced them down which was the right thing to do.

i think you give her too much credit. it didnt take much to outwit the coal union, they where spoiling for a fight long enough to give ministers time to stockpile coal so we could see out a strike. hardly out thinking with a master strategy, its was surprising that the union went ahead - didnt they see the massive stocks of coal flooding in? the fractures in society have been there for time immemorial, and the greed had been fueled by those two decades of being told you can have it all. it may suit some to apportion blame to one person, reality this society created itself.

 

[Leighgull]

i think you give her too much credit. it didnt take much to outwit the coal union, they where spoiling for a fight long enough to give ministers time to stockpile coal so we could see out a strike. hardly out thinking with a master strategy, its was surprising that the union went ahead - didnt they see the massive stocks of coal flooding in? the fractures in society have been there for time immemorial, and the greed had been fueled by those two decades of being told you can have it all. it may suit some to apportion blame to one person, reality this society created itself.

You are focused on one strike. Admittedly it was the one that people remember but there wer similar battles with Ambulance crews,the public sector, nationalised industries and academics/ teachers. Union power went nuts for several years because of greed and weak, indecisive governments both red and blue. It's not inappropriate to blame thatcher for the sell off of Britains core services the destruction of our manufacturing base and the deep fissures that persist in our communities. She made the mistake f putting ideology before rationalism and really, really believed that she had a god given right to destroy the working class for profit. It amazes me when I hear people fawning over her. It seems to me she has very little to commend her.

What did people really benefit from? We have no council housing, our industrial base has gone our bankers and brokers have brought the country to its knees through greed, our underclass is alienated and angry our essential services like rail, energy supply and telecoms are owned by foreign governments and hedge funds so our markets are prey to shareholders and speculators and our economy is loaded towards service provision and finance.

Seriously, does anyone think beyond their own tax bill and the value of their ****ing house? Because that is ALL Thatcher left us with. A few people made a few quid in the 1980s and she's a legend? ****s sake..

 

[drew]

Spot on....this is from someone who worked through the 70s and watched as the Unions destroyed company after company....Mrs Thatcher was a godsend to this country...at the time, before she took over Britain was branded the 'Sick man of Europe'...we had inflation over 21%,bins were not emptied,transport on strike,dead left unburied...much to the left's delight...if that's how they want to live....let them go to a communist state and live in squalor...

What a ridiculous comment. Where do you get off with such shite as 'much to the left's delight'. I suppose all those that died during this period were tories thus allowing the left to be delighted!!!

I'm not sure anyone could seriously argue that there weren't problems to deal with at that point in this country. She went too far, too fast though. Like all politicians, she was aware of her legacy more than the impact her policies had on real people.

This to me is the problem of the the left right balance in UK politics. One come in, shifts us too far one way, needs another party to come in to sort it out, who in turn shift it too far the other way. Repeat, ad infinitum.

Agree.

Germany has very strong trade unions but also strong economic growth, as the unions work with management rather than fight them all the time.

The problem in the 70's was not the Unions per se, but the leadership, which was politically motivated rather than focussed on the long term interests of their members. Similarly management techniques employed by UK companies during the period were outdated and confrontational, with egos and being 'right' taking precedence over goalsetting and problem solving.

Thatcher succeeded because there was a vacuum where there should have been an opposition, and the only dissenting voices to her were Prince Charles and Spitting Image.

Again, agree. Judging by some on here you would think they would like us to go back to the days when employers had carte blanche to do as they please. Sack people for no reason, no sick pay, no paid holidays and very probably everyone working six full days every week. Perhaps we could eliminate education and get the kids to work in sweatshops under the same conditions as they do in Bangladesh.

Oh behave. I did learn something from that show. Firstly...the right to buy, a flagship for Thatcherites, was a Labour idea which she stole and that, as minister for Education, she took down the grammar school system in favour of Comprehensives then cynically attacked Labour when the Tories were out of office for destroying the aspirations of bright kids.

Where does the cult of thatcher derive from? The Tories under Heath capitulated to the unions, we ended up with the three day week and the mass strikes that crippled the Labour government that tried to resist further surrenders. By the end of 1978 the Tories were able to walk into power with a country sick and tired of the unions and strikes and a mandate to thrash the reds within an inch of their lives.

I don't disagree that the unions had been using strikes to hold the country to ransom. I further agree that she did outthink, out strategise and faced them down which was the right thing to do.

What I don't accept is that her legacy is worth crowing about as she ended up undoing all the good she did in her first few years by imposing ideology on Britain which, ultimately, led to the fractured and greed ridden society which we have today.

Not really bothered whether you agree or not. The evidence is there for all to see every day of our lives.

Edit : I'm not particularly left wing btw. I am actually pretty right wing in my view of multiculturalism and big state nannyism. I am, though, sensible enough to spot wickedness in politics...Margaret Thatcher left this country morally and socially bankrupt. That's why I call her a bitch.

Again, I agree. My problem is that the sum of the parts were terrible for the country but that some of the parts (not many) were necessary. A curb on the union leadership, yes, but all the privatisation of what were essentially monopolies were disastrous. Cue people banging on about the railways being better. Well they never had any investment and before people bang on about private companies investing money, 43% of rail income comes from tax payers! Our utilities all seem to be owned by foreign companies. Selling the council house, yes great idea (and a Labour one) but not reinvesting the income in more stock just led to the spiralling cost of homes. She started the deregulation of the banks thus laying the foundations for the 'casino' banks. And lets not forget that at the time we should have been reaping the benefits of North Sea oil and investing that in infrastructure, eg new hospitals, new or replacement schools etc but what she did was promote a culture that erred on the side of greed and self interest.