Question Time

[Pavilionaire]

The suggestion on Question time was to freely trade with the rest of the world as the EU restricts this. So in order to do that, the U.K. has to offer perks to those nations, especially when trying to negotiate a better or free trade deal. Increasing migration from those countries such as India is what is being touted. If we reject the single market and restrict EU migration, then increasing non EU will be inevitable. Either that or we don't freely trade with anyone.

So in a referendum ultimately decided by people voting against immigration a consequence will be an increase in non-EU migration?!

 

[pastafarian]

the terms of our exit will be agreed by whom exactly?

The terms of the exit and withdrawal will be agreed by Team UK and Team EU when they come to an agreement during the negotiations. According also to the stipulations laid out in Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

 

[pastafarian]

So in a referendum ultimately decided by people voting against immigration a consequence will be an increase in non-EU migration?!

I would have thought yes Its quite possible that there may be fluctuations in those coming from non EU countries, considering that when we eventually officially leave The EU freedom of movement will be stopped.
It may take some time to get to grips with a new integrated immigration system that’s applicable to all. The important thing though is the eventual taking back of control of borders where EU citizens are concerned and applying the system equally to everyone both EU and non EU. This new reality will take some time to get adjusted to I should imagine.

 

[cunning fergus]

Ive seen some of your posts on NSC and you seem to be an intelligent bloke
This really is an unfair assessment though . The Leave campaign never said immigration should stop, it said immigration should be controlled.There is a huge difference. The Leave campaign never said get rid of those immigrants that are already here like you claim. Can you point to anyone that said immigrants here legally should be removed? I dont think you can.

i honestly cant believe that you believe what you said is true. Surely you are saying what you said only to be difficult or controversial .If you really believe what you have said is true, then perhaps millions of remainers believe that also, thats a huge amount of people voting to remain based on a lie.

Pasta, this is a good point, however I would add another aspect to the leave campaign's assessment of immigration in the campaign. I am sure Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart, Chris Grayling and IDS made the same point when interviewed.

They were campaigning for control because immigration from the EU under current EU rules it is not, and cannot be controlled.

Leaving the EU would allow political parties to therefore deliver control if they saw fit.

This is the nub of the point, if a political party want free unfettered immigration then they can campaign for it and put it to the British people in an election..........

They won't win many seats of course, but they could do it.

But that to me is the key aspect, if a political party did campaign to control immigration, then they legally can.

As you say, nothing to do with repatriation........

 

[cunning fergus]

Very odd that many people seem to readily accept this bizarre argument linking 'free' trade/ access to the single market having a stipulated condition of free movement. This is a very odd model only to be found in Europe (?) thanks to the EC/EU.

I suppose someone could make a case for free movement when the EC was relatively small and member countries economically similar. But the huge discrepancies within the current EU member states was always likely to cause problems especially with the porous nature of the EU's external border.

Absolutely, if the most capitalist country in the world won't allow nationals from countries it trades with, and has close relations with to rock up there to work without a by your leave, why would any other country?

If it did work they would be rolling back visas and green cards quicker than you can say George Washington.

They don't, they know their citizens wouldn't stand for it, and it's why in this election, the country can vote for a potential president like Donald Trump.

If they do of course, everyman and woman Jack will be a racist.........sound familiar?

 

[pastafarian]

Pasta, this is a good point, however I would add another aspect to the leave campaign's assessment of immigration in the campaign. I am sure Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart, Chris Grayling and IDS made the same point when interviewed.

They were campaigning for control because immigration from the EU under current EU rules it is not, and cannot be controlled.

Leaving the EU would allow political parties to therefore deliver control if they saw fit.

This is the nub of the point, if a political party want free unfettered immigration then they can campaign for it and put it to the British people in an election..........

They won't win many seats of course, but they could do it.

But that to me is the key aspect, if a political party did campaign to control immigration, then they legally can.

As you say, nothing to do with repatriation........

Indeed yes,this is true

The message seemed very clear to me. simply control the borders and control future immigration with a managed intake.
And yet still now some people think it meant shut the borders and repatriate the immigrants that are here, as people also claimed pre referendum.

If they want to continue with this myth and believe it they really should reconsider their whole idea about people voting based on a lie and look much closer to home.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The company my husband used to worked for got bought out by an Indian company. Instead of hiring local people they would ship people over from India. Everytime there was Redundancies it was the local people who got the chop and the Indian people stayed. By the time he got made redundant the office was 90 percent Indian and no women left at all. If this had happened the other way round there would have been an up roar. I guess only racism is one way.

All these people were on work visas so don't show up on the imergration stats, doesn't stop people losing their jobs to them though.

This! My firm is going the same way, yet the Indian government wants Easier Visa access with the EU and we haven't even started our negotiations with them, we are a smaller fish now, the Indian government will ask for more from us. To think we now have to renegotiate trade deals with the rest of the world, each one will need a carrot dangled in order to the the free trade deal with non EU countries that the Brexiters are talking about (India China Nigeria + anywhere with oil).

 

[pastafarian]

This! My firm is going the same way, yet the Indian government wants Easier Visa access with the EU and we haven't even started our negotiations with them, we are a smaller fish now, the Indian government will ask for more from us. To think we now have to renegotiate trade deals with the rest of the world, each one will need a carrot dangled in order to the the free trade deal with non EU countries that the Brexiters are talking about (India China Nigeria + anywhere with oil).

are you for real?
when we have left The EU and conduct trade talks with India we will be going 1 on 1 to achieve an agreement. we wont be part of the 28 v 1 where the 28 cant agree what they want.
what makes you think we are a small fish compared to India? surely we decide trade agreements with India after we have left the EU as equals. No one is forced to sign trade deals with clauses they dont want when its 1 on 1

 

[Captain Sensible]

are you for real?
when we have left The EU and conduct trade talks with India we will be going 1 on 1 to achieve an agreement. we wont be part of the 28 v 1 where the 28 cant agree what they want.
what makes you think we are a small fish compared to India? surely we decide trade agreements with India after we have left the EU as equals. No one is forced to sign trade deals

The reason trade deals take so long is because they are a negotiation where each country tries to get the best deal or perks for itself. You don't both just show up and say, 'we give you free trade and you give us free trade'. If the UK turns up to a negotiation saying, we are 'offering you free trade', all our cards are on the table and we'll be taken to the cleaners. You know this as I've read a lot of your posts and whilst I don't often agree, your points are valid and well thought out.
The firm I currently work for has had its IT department ripped apart, not from EU migrants but mostly from India. They shipped in Indian staff on work permits and Visas, layed off uk based staff of which about 15% are left. Now they are opening up a base in Bangalore and all our IT will go through them. The other 15% are doomed. I'm not talking a small firm either. The IT department had around 750 jobs. A large corporation. Whilst the call centre has a uk staff member (which they put back to the uk after complaints), behind the scenes it's all going south, to the Indian sub continent. This is without the easy access visas or anything that the Tories will offer the 'Colonies' in exchange for free trade. Yes I am very much for real!

 

[Soulman]

Ive seen some of your posts on NSC and you seem to be an intelligent bloke
This really is an unfair assessment though . The Leave campaign never said immigration should stop, it said immigration should be controlled.There is a huge difference. The Leave campaign never said get rid of those immigrants that are already here like you claim. Can you point to anyone that said immigrants here legally should be removed? I dont think you can.

i honestly cant believe that you believe what you said is true. Surely you are saying what you said only to be difficult or controversial .If you really believe what you have said is true, then perhaps millions of remainers believe that also, thats a huge amount of people voting to remain based on a lie.

Exactly.

 

[Wellesley]

I think the confusion lies with the fact that Theresa May hasn't guaranteed that the eu migrants that have settled here will be able to stay, and she won't until the eu gives assurances that the same will apply to Brits that have settled in the eu. Surely even the remainers (of which she was one) can see the sense in that.

 

[Soulman]

This! My firm is going the same way, yet the Indian government wants Easier Visa access with the EU and we haven't even started our negotiations with them, we are a smaller fish now, the Indian government will ask for more from us. To think we now have to renegotiate trade deals with the rest of the world, each one will need a carrot dangled in order to the the free trade deal with non EU countries that the Brexiters are talking about (India China Nigeria + anywhere with oil).

'UK is the largest G20 investor in India'..... do you think that India will risk upsetting trade deals that WE can negotiate post Brexit.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-is-the-largest-g20-investor-in-india

 

[pastafarian]

The reason trade deals take so long is because they are a negotiation where each country tries to get the best deal or perks for itself. You don't both just show up and say, 'we give you free trade and you give us free trade'. If the UK turns up to a negotiation saying, we are 'offering you free trade', all our cards are on the table and we'll be taken to the cleaners. You know this as I've read a lot of your posts and whilst I don't often agree, your points are valid and well thought out.
The firm I currently work for has had its IT department ripped apart, not from EU migrants but mostly from India. They shipped in Indian staff on work permits and Visas, layed off uk based staff of which about 15% are left. Now they are opening up a base in Bangalore and all our IT will go through them. The other 15% are doomed. I'm not talking a small firm either. The IT department had around 750 jobs. A large corporation. Whilst the call centre has a uk staff member (which they put back to the uk after complaints), behind the scenes it's all going south, to the Indian sub continent. This is without the easy access visas or anything that the Tories will offer the 'Colonies' in exchange for free trade. Yes I am very much for real!

My point was you seemed to infer we would be inferior to India and have to concede articles where trade deals are concerned. I dont agree, we would surely negotiate as equals..
Whatever deals we have currently in place with India my point was further trade deals with any country do not mean an automatic increase in immigration when visa liberalisation is applied to tourists and specific sections of industry.

As for your company that has been over run by indians i feel sorry for you.
The current immigration policy that lets in 100`s of 1000`s with no control on some has assisted this.
The tories have constantly insisted they will drive this number down to the 10`s of 1000`s . Its been a spectacular failure so far
hopefully they can achieve it eventually so other firms dont go through what you had to endure.

 

[Soulman]

My point was you seemed to infer we would be inferior to India and have to concede articles where trade deals are concerned. I dont agree, we would surely negotiate as equals..
Whatever deals we have currently in place with India my point was further trade deals with any country do not mean an automatic increase in immigration when visa liberalisation is applied to tourists and specific sections of industry.

As for your company that has been over run by indians i feel sorry for you.
The current immigration policy that lets in 100`s of 1000`s with no control on some has assisted this.
The tories have constantly insisted they will drive this number down to the 10`s of 1000`s . Its been a spectacular failure so far
hopefully they can achieve it eventually so other firms dont go through what you had to endure.

Yep, and hopefully these overseas call companies that are calling on behalf of UK companies will not ring me at 8-30 on a Saturday morning when i have been getting up at 5-30 all week.

 

[Captain Sensible]

'UK is the largest G20 investor in India'..... do you think that India will risk upsetting trade deals that WE can negotiate post Brexit.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-is-the-largest-g20-investor-in-india

It's not me saying that the dangled Carrot will be more non EU migration to sweaten free trade deals. It's the current government.

 

[Wellesley]

It's not me saying that the dangled Carrot will be more non EU migration to sweaten free trade deals. It's the current government.

Oh no, not SWEATY Indians!

 

[Captain Sensible]

My point was you seemed to infer we would be inferior to India and have to concede articles where trade deals are concerned. I dont agree, we would surely negotiate as equals..
Whatever deals we have currently in place with India my point was further trade deals with any country do not mean an automatic increase in immigration when visa liberalisation is applied to tourists and specific sections of industry.

As for your company that has been over run by indians i feel sorry for you.
The current immigration policy that lets in 100`s of 1000`s with no control on some has assisted this.
The tories have constantly insisted they will drive this number down to the 10`s of 1000`s . Its been a spectacular failure so far
hopefully they can achieve it eventually so other firms dont go through what you had to endure.

I don't think the UK is in such a great position to do trade deals, we talk ourselves up a little and don't forget it's US that want something from them, not the other way around. But as in all of this, we just have to sit back and hope for the best.
I don't work in IT so it hasn't affected me directly but I've seen a lot of heartache and downright crushing of individuals that were damn good at their jobs. We weren't loss making, far from it. The Visa work permits they issued were very unfair and dodgy. How can an IT person from India get a Visa and work permit, so that uk based workers could be layed off? What justification was there to grant these permits? Just to help a firm cost cut. The joke is we need an IT department here in the U.K., albeit much smaller, and they will fill it with mostly the IT department employees from Bangalore doing a secondment!
My point being that should any free trade deals be done with countries that are being named such as India and China, this type of thing will increase throughout the uk. But we just have to hope that whatever deals are negotiated, we don't let increased non EU migration destroy uk jobs. The Brexit camp argue EU migration has pushed down wages and created too much competition for jobs, strain on the economy etc. Even though I don't agree it's damaged our economy, actually it's improved it. But Non EU migration won't be pushing down wages, it will destroy it. You won't be in competition for a job with a non EU worker from somewhere like India, you will be replaced by one!! Their wages are so so low that a company such as mine can afford to pay minimum wage for a skilled job. Brexit won't stop that, actually it looks like speeding it up.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Oh no, not SWEATY Indians!

Really?? Is there any need for this?

 

[Wellesley]

Really?? Is there any need for this?

Whhhhhhoooooooooosssssshhhhhhh!!
(sweeten)

 

[Soulman]

Whhhhhhoooooooooosssssshhhhhhh!!
(sweeten)

Defo a Whhhhhhhhhooooooooosh moment......must be painful to sweat on the pot.