Peter Alliss says fight for women’s rights in golf has ‘caused mayhem’

[Ex-Staffs Gull]

At my club, we have 5 6 and 7 day memberships. Pay as you play or full fees on all of these. Women have Tuesday morning blocked out for ladies comps but can play in all other comps. To this degree, as a male 7 day member I cannot play on Tuesday mornings but Ladies can play anytime. This is a legacy of different comp days when women couldnt play in certain mens comps. I reckon 90% of clubs are the same as this, with flexible memberships and in a lot of cases women actually getting a better deal. I have no issue with this.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

People in the past were stupid. Especially if they were a bit square. Not like us brilliant new generation with our better ideas on everything.

One of the most messed up things about our culture is the lack of respect for age and the assumption that we are on one direct path of improvement in terms of our cultural norms.

Quite.
There is much to be learned from each generation growing up. Its just the attitude that everyone 40-50 years ago was neolithic, in thinking and doing, that upsets me. There are elements in our society today that are far more crass, boorish and ugly than anything that went before. We seem to have lost a lot of both personal and national pride. Individuals seem much more selfish now, more self-centred. A lot of parents now fail to work hard enough with their children. Post war families were ingrained with certain habits. A sense of civility, a deference to age and general manners. Table manners were taught, lazy speech corrected and appropriate dress code observed. More effort was made to retain the family unit, even if partners were having difficulties.
Of course there was prejudice. A lot of people resented the large influx from the Caribbean and then East Africa. We all lived in much less of a multi-cultural society. Less women went out to work and less women were mobile ( car drivers ) so there is perception of sexism. The women at home, cooking and cleaning, everything ready for the men, returning from work. The men then taking themselves off to the pub, whilst the women put the kids to bed. All very comfortable, all very stereotypical. Homosexuality was largely underground ( and I don't mean blokes having it off in the Tube! ) It wasn't public, it wasn't obvious and it wasn't generally accepted as the norm. Youngsters were far less exposed to it and therefore didn't have a lot to go on. They didn't expect to see young men being intimate with each other. When you are not used to something, you are less relaxed in attitude.
Peter Alliss grew up in the austerity and conformity of post-war Britain. He's seen a lot of changes. I don't believe that many people of his generation are deliberately racist, sexist or homophobic. In the late 50's and 60's society started to change quite dramatically and many people struggled to cope with these changes.
There is a lot to commend about todays society but to denigrate the recent past, as if it is the dark ages in attitude and behaviour, is ill-informed and uneducated.

 

[sahel]

If a shorter version of the game is the future then why arent roedean and rottingdean hosting pga tournaments. That would be excellent.

Short as in time not length of hole! Perhaps people can afford a couple of hours rather than 4 or 5. So why not have competitions at club and professional level over say 12 holes rather than 18. Too radical? I wonder what the viewing figures are for Sky for a normal European Tour event? Just suppose they ran a one day 12 hole competition. Would people be more interested? Would more people be attracted into the game? It doesn't mean you have to drop the classical format just add something different

 

[jimbob5]

Short as in time not length of hole! Perhaps people can afford a couple of hours rather than 4 or 5. So why not have competitions at club and professional level over say 12 holes rather than 18. Too radical? I wonder what the viewing figures are for Sky for a normal European Tour event? Just suppose they ran a one day 12 hole competition. Would people be more interested? Would more people be attracted into the game? It doesn't mean you have to drop the classical format just add something different

There should also be automatic point deduction for slow play.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Short as in time not length of hole! Perhaps people can afford a couple of hours rather than 4 or 5. So why not have competitions at club and professional level over say 12 holes rather than 18. Too radical? I wonder what the viewing figures are for Sky for a normal European Tour event? Just suppose they ran a one day 12 hole competition. Would people be more interested? Would more people be attracted into the game? It doesn't mean you have to drop the classical format just add something different

Part of what makes golf the challenge that it is in the length of time it takes to play. Golf is a difficult game to play not only as you are hitting a stationary ball against the elements, but you are having to concentrate for a long period of time. Golf is more a mental challenge than a physical one. Shortening it would take something away from the game.

Having said that, there is no need for slow play - professional golf has had a problem with it for a long time and it has become a problem in the amateur game. 4 hours is ample time to play a round of golf, even as a fourball. Any longer than that is ridiculous. It is generally caused by people faffing about trying to be Tiger Woods when they have the skill of a lump of wood. Or not watching where their ball goes, or not letting faster games through etc etc.

The drop in membership I would guess is predominantly down to the expense of golf - the time factor is an issue for anyone with a young family irrespective of fees, and it has always been a factor.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Quite.
There is much to be learned from each generation growing up. Its just the attitude that everyone 40-50 years ago was neolithic, in thinking and doing, that upsets me. There are elements in our society today that are far more crass, boorish and ugly than anything that went before. We seem to have lost a lot of both personal and national pride. Individuals seem much more selfish now, more self-centred. A lot of parents now fail to work hard enough with their children. Post war families were ingrained with certain habits. A sense of civility, a deference to age and general manners. Table manners were taught, lazy speech corrected and appropriate dress code observed. More effort was made to retain the family unit, even if partners were having difficulties.
Of course there was prejudice. A lot of people resented the large influx from the Caribbean and then East Africa. We all lived in much less of a multi-cultural society. Less women went out to work and less women were mobile ( car drivers ) so there is perception of sexism. The women at home, cooking and cleaning, everything ready for the men, returning from work. The men then taking themselves off to the pub, whilst the women put the kids to bed. All very comfortable, all very stereotypical. Homosexuality was largely underground ( and I don't mean blokes having it off in the Tube! ) It wasn't public, it wasn't obvious and it wasn't generally accepted as the norm. Youngsters were far less exposed to it and therefore didn't have a lot to go on. They didn't expect to see young men being intimate with each other. When you are not used to something, you are less relaxed in attitude.
Peter Alliss grew up in the austerity and conformity of post-war Britain. He's seen a lot of changes. I don't believe that many people of his generation are deliberately racist, sexist or homophobic. In the late 50's and 60's society started to change quite dramatically and many people struggled to cope with these changes.
There is a lot to commend about todays society but to denigrate the recent past, as if it is the dark ages in attitude and behaviour, is ill-informed and uneducated.

Ah, but I didn't denigrate the recent past. The bit of your post that I have emboldened is basically what I put in my post.

My mum and dad are also from this generation, and just like Alliss, they have tried to change attitudes that were quite firmly ingrained. They have both, like Alliss, done quite well.

But, God, Alliss' tired style is not, in my opinion, suited to broadcasting in 2015. And though he has moved quite well with the times, he has retained some attitudes that belong in the recent past, and I, personally, don't want these views to have a platform.

Just as I wouldn't want some of my parents' views to be broadcast to the nation.

 

[The Spanish]

Ah, but I didn't denigrate the recent past. The bit of your post that I have emboldened is basically what I put in my post.

My mum and dad are also from this generation, and just like Alliss, they have tried to change attitudes that were quite firmly ingrained. They have both, like Alliss, done quite well.

But, God, Alliss' tired style is not, in my opinion, suited to broadcasting in 2015. And though he has moved quite well with the times, he has retained some attitudes that belong in the recent past, and I, personally, don't want these views to have a platform.

Just as I wouldn't want some of my parents' views to be broadcast to the nation.

Have you ever seen Logan's run PM? Mind you it was made 40 years ago so probably totally irrelevant and stupid now.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Short as in time not length of hole! Perhaps people can afford a couple of hours rather than 4 or 5. So why not have competitions at club and professional level over say 12 holes rather than 18. Too radical? I wonder what the viewing figures are for Sky for a normal European Tour event? Just suppose they ran a one day 12 hole competition. Would people be more interested? Would more people be attracted into the game? It doesn't mean you have to drop the classical format just add something different

That is a slippery slope towards innovation

 

[Hampster Gull]

Ah, but I didn't denigrate the recent past. The bit of your post that I have emboldened is basically what I put in my post.

My mum and dad are also from this generation, and just like Alliss, they have tried to change attitudes that were quite firmly ingrained. They have both, like Alliss, done quite well.

But, God, Alliss' tired style is not, in my opinion, suited to broadcasting in 2015. And though he has moved quite well with the times, he has retained some attitudes that belong in the recent past, and I, personally, don't want these views to have a platform.

Just as I wouldn't want some of my parents' views to be broadcast to the nation.

What is wrong with people having different views from yourself or the percieved social norm?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What is wrong with people having different views from yourself or the percieved social norm?

Nothing.

However, I will challenge homophobia, sexism and racism from whoever, including my parents. They have been pleased to have had their attitudes challenged, recognised where they have been outdated, and moved on.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Nothing.

However, I will challenge homophobia, sexism and racism from whoever, including my parents. They have been pleased to have had their attitudes challenged, recognised where they have been outdated, and moved on.

Ok, cool. I like the point made earlier, just because it's of our time doesn't mean it's right. But I dislike all the 'isms you qoute but understand why people may have a different view

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Have you ever seen Logan's run PM? Mind you it was made 40 years ago so probably totally irrelevant and stupid now.

I don't remember seeing it - I'm getting old, and my memory is fading. Looks interesting though, and Jenny Agutter is in it - maybe I'll check it out!