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[Technology] Pay by the mile road pricing...



GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
47,012
Gloucester
reckon would be rare to find a company that moved out of city/town centre for car parking. office space cost would be the major driver, transport links/access to clients second, available skills in area, then maybe car parking.

Cost of office space, yes, OK, some of that was a reason too, but not necessarily the main driver - recruitment and retention of staff was! Access for clients was fine - same as for staff (and generally there would be a few car parking spaces for pre-booked favoured clients). Available skills irrelevant - existing staff transferred to new location.
Staffing was definately an issue though - recruiting problems due to no staff car parking! That mattered to a lot of people with available skills!
 




blockhseagull

Well-known member
Jan 30, 2006
7,357
Southampton
But why are they doing that? A hundred years ago most people lived within five miles of where they worked (I suspect that most people lived within a mile of where they worked). What changed was the need to build big factories and offices in city centres but as (G49er has pointed out) many of these are now standing empty. If someone can do his or her office job from home, then they can now.

And despite my talking about the Victorians and how they were wrong about the future of rail and cars, we could go back to those times. We may even start seeing small rural industries spring up using those old standbys of wind and water power.

You're right, I don't know exactly what the future will bring but I do know that thinking the future will generally be the same as we currently have is not the way it's going to be



What about jobs that involve travel, how can you get those people out of their cars when they are expected to attend several locations in a day and have to take equipment with them.
 


PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
18,749
Hurst Green
The main issue with lumping extra cost on to motorists is simple if you're happy to pay the extra on all goods fair enough.

A lot of people are myopic in their view. I'm all for local produce, local working and not people feeling the absolute NEED to jet off on their holidays (just for mental health reasons) but it just doesn't work that way. Again there's those that believe home working is the future to stop the commute, fine if you're a computer user (pen pusher in old school terms) but that hardly scratches the surface of employment. Many need a vehicle as they travel to many places during their working day.
 


Doonhamer7

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2016
1,298
What does it matter by 2030 (maybe 2035) know one will own a car - we’ll all be getting an Uber or whatever replaces it (think laterally = Amazon or Google) and it has huge tax implications.
1. Car charging will end up being variable - want to use the m25 between 8-9am - kerching! Want to use rural road in highlands at midnight - zilch
2. Councils make revenue from car parks / parking tickets - this revenue will be lost. I heard New York City makes $600-700m per year in car parking fines, which is used to pay for other services.
3. As no one owns a car and there all electric - there will be no petrol stations, tire centres, garages as they will all be done at warehouse type facilities - owned by car manufacturer and done during non-peak hours. This means no rates/taxes for council on all these SME business. I suppose no different to all the farriers / blacksmiths / dung collectors that disappeared between 1910 and 1920
4. Your office will be say at most 1/2 the size it is at present and 30% of land space for offices in the Uk is for car parking - not needed - so less rates/taxes
5. So although central govt has an issue to deal with local govt has an even bigger one which I expect they haven’t even thought about.
6. So to replace this revenue tax will have to be either on all our wages (vote loser), vat (20% already), business profits (which remember in most case is our pension pots), stealth tax (have another go at all our pensions) or massive sin tax (booze, fags, legalised recreational drugs, all food that’s enjoyable (fat/sugar tax))

One way or another we’ve all got to pay tax to run a functioning society
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,412
Uffern
What about jobs that involve travel, how can you get those people out of their cars when they are expected to attend several locations in a day and have to take equipment with them.

I'm not saying that no-one needs to travel but there will be a lot fewer of them. I do say that very few people (if any) will own a car. Yes, there will be plumbers, sparkies etc who need to travel but they make a small percentage of the workforce.

And (this is pure guesswork on my part) there may not be a need for so many.

Not that long ago, connecting a modem to a PC and setting up an email account was not easy (it took me nearly a day to get my first one running) and now look how quickly we're connected. Twenty years ago, I took my CCNA certification to configure routers within a network, now they're plug and play. We saw that transformation of an industry in a couple of decades, what to stay that plumbing won't be equally commoditised?
 




portlock seagull

Why? Why us?
Jul 28, 2003
17,360
Just call it road tax and then tax per car, flat rate and stop linking it to pollution.

The issue with whacking up tax on fuel is what happens to people who have no choice but to drive to work such as admin staff at schools (and teachers), other key workers like nurses etc. They can’t all move to live in some areas so then what happens? For example, villages can cost a shed load to live in so teachers can’t afford to live near the school so they have to drive to work. If they pay per mile or have to pay loads of tax on fuel then will those schools be able to get staff? Yes a niche example but that would apply all over the place.

A good start would be to spend road tax on roads.

This noveau approach has proved successful in many countries. Of course, it’ll never happen here...
 




Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,412
Uffern
What does it matter by 2030 (maybe 2035) know one will own a car - we’ll all be getting an Uber or whatever replaces it (think laterally = Amazon or Google) and it has huge tax implications.
1. Car charging will end up being variable - want to use the m25 between 8-9am - kerching! Want to use rural road in highlands at midnight - zilch
2. Councils make revenue from car parks / parking tickets - this revenue will be lost. I heard New York City makes $600-700m per year in car parking fines, which is used to pay for other services.
3. As no one owns a car and there all electric - there will be no petrol stations, tire centres, garages as they will all be done at warehouse type facilities - owned by car manufacturer and done during non-peak hours. This means no rates/taxes for council on all these SME business. I suppose no different to all the farriers / blacksmiths / dung collectors that disappeared between 1910 and 1920
4. Your office will be say at most 1/2 the size it is at present and 30% of land space for offices in the Uk is for car parking - not needed - so less rates/taxes
5. So although central govt has an issue to deal with local govt has an even bigger one which I expect they haven’t even thought about.
6. So to replace this revenue tax will have to be either on all our wages (vote loser), vat (20% already), business profits (which remember in most case is our pension pots), stealth tax (have another go at all our pensions) or massive sin tax (booze, fags, legalised recreational drugs, all food that’s enjoyable (fat/sugar tax))

One way or another we’ve all got to pay tax to run a functioning society

OK, here's my take on how it could work.

Mr or Ms Bizness buys a fleet of self-driving vehicles - let's say a thousand. They cost £60k each so he's spaffed £60m already. The government charges him, say, £20k per year per vehicle. So, the government has already raked in money on the sale of the vehicle and another 20 grand on top - let's say that's £30m for the 1000 cars.

Those cars are rented as Acme Car Rental. Let's say the standard rate is 50p per mile but double in an urban area and if it's used between 7.00 to 10.00 and16.00 to 19.00, it's £5.00 per mile (in an urban area). Under those conditions, the cars bring in £500 per weekday, £300 per Sat, £200 per Sun - £1000 per week - £52m per year for the fleet.

The cost of the car is written off over three years £20m per year plus £20m vehicle tax. The govt takes an additional 5% of revenue - another £2.5m approx, let's say £1m maintenance costs and Mr/Ms Bizness rakes in a cool £8m profit.

As for the user - he or she only has to go in three days a week. One journey is at peak time 10 miler round trip at £50, the other two are off peak £20. There's also a shopping trip on Sat of £4 - that's £74 (about £3k a year). That's a lot less than someone usually pays for cost of car, petrol, taxes, MOT, maintenance and parking per year.

It's win/win/win all round - the government rakes in the tax, the business owner the profit and the user saves money. The roads are cleaner, less congested and safer - all that's left to moan about is the weather.
 








Uter

Well-known member
Aug 5, 2008
1,474
The land of chocolate
3. As no one owns a car and there all electric - there will be no petrol stations, tire centres, garages as they will all be done at warehouse type facilities - owned by car manufacturer and done during non-peak hours. This means no rates/taxes for council on all these SME business. I suppose no different to all the farriers / blacksmiths / dung collectors that disappeared between 1910 and 1920
4. Your office will be say at most 1/2 the size it is at present and 30% of land space for offices in the Uk is for car parking - not needed - so less rates/taxes

You assume that these things won't be repurposed which is questionable surely? Taking your example of petrol stations, most of these in B&H are prime sites for housing or mixed use development which will bring in revenue that will offset losses, or even yield a net gain.
 












Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,088
The Fatherland
This thread really does read like something the manufacturers of horse-drawn carriages would have been having around 1900 :lolol:

What was the tax being discussed in those days ? Hay tax perhaps ?

Do you think carriage drivers spent all their time moaning about penny-farthings sailing through toll gates without paying?
 




Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,088
The Fatherland
The person you quoted lives in Southampton. I just wondered who you were referring to when mentioning the north. I thought it had been a decent debate so was surprised to read your comment. Doesn’t matter.

It was an attempt at humour. It wasn’t one of my better lines though, and on reflection a bit misplaced. Shall we both agree to gloss over it and move on?
 










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