[Technology] Owning an EV without a personal charger...

[Bozza]

We moved to EV for a variety of reasons, but we needed to change. While have a relatively low income, our outgoings are also pretty low.

I reckon it's costing us around an extra £100 or so a month compared to not going electric. That's a cost we can handle, and I want to contribute to the momentum towards electric. It's not just about discernable benefit to me, but I fully appreciate for many it's not yet affordable.

My rough calculations for this figure are:

• We are paying £240/month (including a service package)
• We'd otherwise have paid for a decent used petrol vehicle probably around £100/month
• Fuel savings are £40-£50/month (and going up all the time!).

We will need to either trade-in, give it back, or pay off quite a big sum in 4 years time. My expectation is that costs will have come down and we'll transfer the funding agreement on to a lower cost, higher spec EV at that point. But that's a bit of a risk.

On the other hand, there may be further savings long term once we can charge at low cost times during the night and/or once we have solar panels with a trickle charge system and also a lot of evidence that maintainence costs for EV will be significantly lower over a vehicle lifetime. And of course if the cost of fuel continues to rise...

My view is that EV is not yet a choice for everyone, but probably makes sense for more people than are currently thinking about it. They are lovely to drive too.

The people I'd like to see go Electric first are the many local (to me) families that are driving around in new/nearly new Chelsea tractors. I'm thinking they can probably afford it.

I think we agree.

We currently don't need to change. When we bought this car six years ago (or whenever it was), I don't think we even considered an EV. When we next come to change - in say 3-4 years time, we almost certainly won't consider a conventionally-fuelled car.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

That £44k figure will be rather distorted by the fact that the market is dominated by Tesla and upper-market brands/models currently. On the other hand, you can get a Zoe for under £30k, and the VW ID3 is just a touch over £30k. Those prices are starting to come down as well - partly with increased competition, and partly due to the rapid pace of R&D that's bringing down the costs of batteries (that's the cost per mile of range, so at the moment while range still needs to be increased it's not fully flowing through into RRP - but it will).

More to the point, while the upfront cost can be eye-watering, the "total cost of ownership" for an EV is already lower than that for an ICE. EVs are cheaper to maintain once you have them, and charging an EV is cheaper than filling up an ICE. So as long as you can afford the initial outlay (and I know, that's not the case for many) the EV is the better option. Or, if you can afford the monthly cost of a lease, then leasing is definitely a good starting point. You might pay more to the leasing company, but that is counterbalanced by the reduced running costs.

Absolutely the costs need to come down. And they will - some are predicting they'll reach RRP price parity with ICE by around 2027. They'll have become a clear "best option" choice before then, though.

In terms of 'cheap' EVs the Chinese are seemingly way ahead of the rest of the world. For example, BYD are going to be launching this onto the world soon.



And I'd expect it to sell at between 12-14k new.

They are just 1 of a number of Chinese manufacturers who have been developing and refining battery tech out of view of the rest of the world.

As a good example, the 'most affordable' family EV available in the UK currently (according to me) is the MG ZS EV, which has a decent range, and retails at 25-26k, all in. And these are made in China by SAIC, another massive tech company nobody has heard of.

As well as BYD, and SAIC we have XPeng (Tesla competitor), Geely and Nio who will be appearing in Europe soon. In fact, a little research tells me there are 27 EV manufacturers in China (if you include Tesla).

https://supchina.com/2021/04/20/all...he-27-top-players-in-the-chinese-ev-industry/

If the 'legacy' car makers aren't careful they will be rapidly overtaken and may never catch up again.

 

[Icy Gull]

Making no decisions on an EV until Alfa enter the game, which gives me two years or more

 

[ady1973]

I too am thinking of getting one, but my commute from the new forest to Heathrow (80 miles) each way would be stretching the battery life a bit. So the price of a vehicle which could cope with mileage at the moment outweighs the benefit.Also do the batteries deterate as laptops do?. So after a year or so you are forever plugging them in.

 

[zefarelly]

Making no decisions on an EV until Alfa enter the game, which gives me two years or more

We have a Giulia and a Giullietta, which is due to expire first . . . . IF/when I can find a local job we will likely as not go E/Hybrid for one smaller car and a day van/camper for racing ( Or a Giulia GTA shooting break ;-) ) . . . that is a current gap in the fleet . . . . we certainly don't need 2 petrol cars and will most definitely not entertain the idea of spaffing hard earnt on a soul-less shopping trolley with all the Charisma of an ex Palace England manager.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

That’s my concern too. We still have power stations fuelled by gas, oil, and coal, although renewables are slowing growing.
There’s also a concern over production and later disposing of lithium batteries.

I'm not 100% sure when was the last time any UK electricity was generated using Oil, but it wasn't this year https://grid.iamkate.com/

Gas is the only real Fossil fuel powered generation method of any significance, as the charts on the link show.

Re Lithium battery recycling, I know Tesla aim to recycle the majority of their batteries (at least the metals etc), as this article discussed (after some interesting background info) https://www.cruxinvestor.com/articles/tesla-battery-recycling

Plus Norway aim to build a MASSIVE Li battery recycling facility.

https://www.circularonline.co.uk/ne...ion-battery-recycling-facility-gets-backing/?

Always remember, EVs weren't the 1st thing to contain Lithium Ion batteries, your phone, your laptop, tablet all use them, and the chemistry in EVs is far less dependent on Cobalt than the batteries we've all been disposing for years.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Need loads more charging points (locally to me) …no driveway…about a 100 ft from road….needs to be a healthy used market ….then I might consider one…but only when I’m due to change and that won’t be a while yet.

I do now use a mix of battery operated tools/petrol for work ….technology on the battery/motor front has cone on leaps and bounds

 

[Bozza]

This is a slippery slope, isn't it?

You can pay £250-300 per month for a regular kinda EV or, for about £100pm more*, it seems you can get a Tesla model S. Presumably that's the cheapie Tesla, but even so.

Anyone want to buy a Civic?


(* - I might not have researched this properly so I might be talking nonsense)

 

[Audax]

This is a slippery slope, isn't it?

You can pay £250-300 per month for a regular kinda EV or, for about £100pm more*, it seems you can get a Tesla model S. Presumably that's the cheapie Tesla, but even so.

Anyone want to buy a Civic?


(* - I might not have researched this properly so I might be talking nonsense)

It'll be a cheaper S, but the S is actually their full-fat sedan. The Model 3 (smaller sedan/hatch) should be cheaper than the S.

What will be interesting is when Tesla bring out their new "budget" model (I need to look up when exactly it's expected and what platform it will be built on ... I'd expect a proper hatch though), exactly where it will fit into the UK market in terms of price. From everything I've heard, you get an awful lot more value for your £ with Tesla. Not so much on the hardware side (although even there, they have a small advantage with better range etc), but rather the software side of things they're well ahead of everyone else.

 

[Audax]

Re Lithium battery recycling, I know Tesla aim to recycle the majority of their batteries (at least the metals etc), as this article discussed (after some interesting background info) https://www.cruxinvestor.com/articles/tesla-battery-recycling

Plus Norway aim to build a MASSIVE Li battery recycling facility.

https://www.circularonline.co.uk/ne...ion-battery-recycling-facility-gets-backing/?

Always remember, EVs weren't the 1st thing to contain Lithium Ion batteries, your phone, your laptop, tablet all use them, and the chemistry in EVs is far less dependent on Cobalt than the batteries we've all been disposing for years.

I mentioned in an early post - VW are in the game as well. They opened their first pilot battery recycling facility in Germany back in February. Don't know if they're achieving it, but their aim was to be able to recycle and reuse over 90% of the battery materials.

Not to mention that a lot of ex-car batteries don't even need recycling - they get refurbished and repurposed as stationary power storage for industrial or even in-home solutions.

The whole "but what about disposing of them they can't be recycled!" propaganda needs to die a death. It's a complete myth in 2021, and even a few years back it was already wrong (due to how many of them get refurbished).

 

[Papa Lazarou]

This is a slippery slope, isn't it?

You can pay £250-300 per month for a regular kinda EV or, for about £100pm more*, it seems you can get a Tesla model S. Presumably that's the cheapie Tesla, but even so.

Anyone want to buy a Civic?


(* - I might not have researched this properly so I might be talking nonsense)

One of the reasons why EV lease deals are cheaper now than they were a couple of years ago is because the residual value of EVs in particular has proven to be considerably higher than expected. From what I understand a large driver of the monthly lease cost is to cover the depreciation over the term of the lease (plus all the usual extras and some profit).

When I first started looking at purchasing an EV this specific model (Kia e-nero) was just under £500 per month to lease privately... Now it's down to nearly £300, and this is the longer range 300 mile version.

https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-e-niro-64kwh-lease/

We considered an EV this year when our family car (Ford SMax) failed it's MOT to the tune of £1500, but we were able to get the MoT work down by a neighbour for less and decided to hang on for 1 more year.

I'd like to get solar on the house and a battery installed before we take the plunge, to provide free charging at home, plus of course by then it might be possible to get a V2G car on a lease to add extra battery capacity to our setup.

My only reservation is how quickly we'll see a change to different battery technology / chemistries that might make the current Lion batteries obselete. Things like Aluminium Air, Solid State or Lithium Sulphur could be along some time in the next 2 to 3 years and would change things considerably.

That said, if I can get a family car, big enough for 4 plus the dog in the boot, with c250 mile range for say £300 per month, then I can't see any downsides, at least for a couple of years on a lease.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I mentioned in an early post - VW are in the game as well. They opened their first pilot battery recycling facility in Germany back in February. Don't know if they're achieving it, but their aim was to be able to recycle and reuse over 90% of the battery materials.

Not to mention that a lot of ex-car batteries don't even need recycling - they get refurbished and repurposed as stationary power storage for industrial or even in-home solutions.

The whole "but what about disposing of them they can't be recycled!" propaganda needs to die a death. It's a complete myth in 2021, and even a few years back it was already wrong (due to how many of them get refurbished).

Yes, I missed that post on 1st viewing (that's the problem of replying to a comment in the middle of a thread, as it takes you to the end when you reply).

VW have gone 'all in' when it comes to EVs, and if they can get their battery recycling working then that would be amazing.

With regard to the 2nd life use of ex EV batteries, even old Nissan Leaf batteries (which were only air cooled, so failed sooner than most others) are used for home storage once they car dies around them, so yes, most EV batteries will live on much longer than the car they were made for.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Interesting thread. I'm due a car change soon as I get a car allowance through work but have to keep the car under a certain age.

I'll probably have to go for the lease option as I can't afford a big outlay at the moment, a VW Golf for £250pcm doesn't sound too bad given the amount I've ended up spending to keep a 6yo Audi A3 in good condition.

 

[Audax]

Interesting thread. I'm due a car change soon as I get a car allowance through work but have to keep the car under a certain age.

I'll probably have to go for the lease option as I can't afford a big outlay at the moment, a VW Golf for £250pcm doesn't sound too bad given the amount I've ended up spending to keep a 6yo Audi A3 in good condition.

If it's through work, then definitely do your EV research. As long as the allowance goes directly to the car (rather than being paid to you as cash in your salary - which sadly mine is ) you'll benefit from a very favourable BIK rate by going for an EV. Shop around, though - the e-Golf from memory is a bit of a compromise because they've shoehorned the electric components into a platform that was built as a dedicated ICE vehicle. Battery size isn't great as a result, which means poor range compared to dedicated EVs. It'll stretch the budget a bit more but an ID3 (for example) is a far, far better option.

My one regret about getting my Zoe when I did (don't get me wrong - it's a great little car) is that I was too early to be able to properly compare vs an ID3. If I'd waited 3 months I'd likely have an ID3 on the drive instead of the Zoe. Bigger car overall, with a bigger battery, longer range, and better performance. Charges faster as well if you need to charge when out and about.

 

[highflyer]

I think we agree.

I think we do.

There's nothing very green about changing cars before you would normally need to anyway - unless you are driving big distances in a true gas guzzler.

 

[Brovion]

Interesting thread and this may not be the right place for this as it's a more general question: but have we (the people of the world) decided that electric vehicles are going to be the replacement for petrol/diesel ones? (Yes Stat Brother alongside efficient 24 hour public transport and more cycling lanes to cut down on car use). What about other alternative technologies such as hydrogen? Have they fallen by the wayside? Or is there still a place for them?

I'm not an expert so I have no clue which is 'better'; it would just be nice to avoid a 'VHS v Betamax' scenario all over again where a technology that was agreed to be inferior became the standard just by weight of adoption.

 

[Audax]

Interesting thread and this may not be the right place for this as it's a more general question: but have we (the people of the world) decided that electric vehicles are going to be the replacement for petrol/diesel ones? (Yes Stat Brother alongside efficient 24 hour public transport and more cycling lanes to cut down on car use). What about other alternative technologies such as hydrogen? Have they fallen by the wayside? Or is there still a place for them?

I'm not an expert so I have no clue which is 'better'; it would just be nice to avoid a 'VHS v Betamax' scenario all over again where a technology that was agreed to be inferior became the standard just by weight of adoption.

Very much still a place for Hydrogen. Brighton Buses, for example, have trialled both electric and hydrogen and they're planning on (eventually) replacing their entire fleet with hydrogen. And, despite the big PR stunt from Tesla with their lorry reveal, I don't see a place for pure EV in the haulage industry either. Buses, trucks, couriers, taxis - they'll all need hydrogen IMO. problem is that the technology and infrastructure is still well behind EV. I very much doubt we'll see strong enough hydrogen offerings in time for 2030, which will probably mean late 2029 we'll see a surge in new registrations for non-hybrid ICE vehicles being bought up ahead of the new sales ban. Those will then remain in use for the next 5 years, and the same thing will happen again in 2034 with the last-of-ICE fleets being swapped out for the last-of-the-EV/ICE-hybrids. Unless, of course, hydrogen comes on leaps and bounds in the meantime.

Personally, I think the future should be a mix of electric and hydrogen. IMO I think the ideal would be a hybrid EV/Hydrogen, where the hydrogen system is there to provide on-the-go recharge rather than as a primary drive.

 

[Stat Brother]

Interesting thread and this may not be the right place for this as it's a more general question: but have we (the people of the world) decided that electric vehicles are going to be the replacement for petrol/diesel ones? (Yes Stat Brother alongside efficient 24 hour public transport and more cycling lanes to cut down on car use). What about other alternative technologies such as hydrogen? Have they fallen by the wayside? Or is there still a place for them?

I'm not an expert so I have no clue which is 'better'; it would just be nice to avoid a 'VHS v Betamax' scenario all over again where a technology that was agreed to be inferior became the standard just by weight of adoption.

Ha funny to see my name in lights, on a thread I'm also lurking around for all the same reasons.

I too can't help thinking any decision made now is likely to be the wrong one.
There's no way I can justify the monthly outlay being spoken of here, but would love to have a 'forever car'.

I think in 3-5 years time the tech 'round the corner' will still be a mightily impressive dream.
The only difference being the tech by then will also be great.

On Monday during my 10-15 mile commute home I followed a Honda e.

Looking it up that evening it seemed to be an awful lot of money £25k+ for not a lot of car.
A one coloured supermini with 175 mile radius.

There's just no way that in 3 years time everything about the Honda e won't be exponential bigger, with a £15k price tag.

 

[Audax]

Looking it up that evening it seemed to be an awful lot of money £25k+ for not a lot of car.
A one coloured supermini with 175 mile radius.

The EV superminis are really bad value. You don't have to spend much more to get a lot more range and a lot more space.

Prices are going to come down, for sure. Especially if/when the Chinese enter the UK market. Even in the last 12-24 months you can see how the tech is evolving. The Zoe (while still cheaper) looks poor value for money against the ID3 that was released just a year later. I fully expect the next version of the Zoe in a few years time to be a) well over 300 mile range, and b) should be under £25k even for the top of the range model. If it isn't, something has gone wrong at Renault and they'll find themselves struggling for market share.

Purely from personal observation, in central London the ID3 is already a far more likely spot on the road than the Zoe. Possibly even more common than the Tesla Model 3, actually, and Tesla's have been selling rather well.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Fresh off the press - news relating to on street charging capabilty

https://libertycharge.co.uk/press/