[Albion] Not entirely sure what a penalty is any more....

[Arthur]

All correct decisions IMO:

1. Mitoma wasn't fouled.
2. Hinshelwood did foul the Villa player, but the ref didn't give it in real time and VAR decided it wasn't a clear and obvious error by the ref.
3. Villa players arm was in a natural position.
4. Mitoma benefited from the handball which directly led to the goal.

1 I think was a foul anywhere else on the pitch. In fact there was a similar incident in front of the SW corner about 10 minutes later when a free kick was given. BUT had the referee made a clear and obvious error.....no. So probably the right call by the letter of the law.

2 was one of the most blatant penalty's I've ever seen........until I caught the end of the Liverpool game and Pickford boots Nunez up in the air after he's knocked the ball round him and Nunez gets booked. VAR had a shocker last night.

Agree 3 and 4.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Havnt they made the rule something like if a defender handles the ball in a natural position then it’s not a penalty but if there is any handball in the build up to a goal no matter if it’s a natural position or not then the goal won’t stand? I could be wrong as they change the rules around it here and there.

No.

If the goal scorer accidentally handles the ball it is not given.
Anywhere else in the build up the player has to "deliberately" use their hand/arm.

In this case, I think it wasn't a conscious deliberate use of the arm, but ultimately he did control the ball with his arm, so probably the right call.

 

[Mellotron]

I know it's been covered ad nauseum on here but, by the nature of football, many penalty decisions are subjective. All VAR does is offer a load more angles for us to debate - the two non-penalties from last night are a case in point; we can discuss them forever but, there is no definitive answer.

Why on earth can't VAR just be used to overturn 'clear and obvious' errors by the on field officials? If it's not clear and obvious, stick with the on field decision.

Yup - I was in support of VAR when it was introduced, on THIS basis.

It's not used for this at all - very frustrating. It should be referee's call for the majority of decisions, only overturned for howlers.

I do wonder if it's partly that they spent so much money on all this tech, the team sat in a room etc, so don't feel it can be used quite as sparingly as we'd like.

In an ideal world it would be used about once every 4-5 games, in terms of proper errors. Obviously people will say "where is the line?" but the point is we have to put the line somewhere, and for me it shouldn't be anywhere near where it is now. There are NOT multiple absolute howlers from the referee in every single match.

 

[SittingbourneSeagull]

I said to my son last night that VAR is the thing thats going to stop me coming to watch Premier League football. I hate it and it will push me even further towards watching my local non league team fulltime.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I said to my son last night that VAR is the thing thats going to stop me coming to watch Premier League football. I hate it and it will push me even further towards watching my local non league team fulltime.

It is shit and i'd much rather have the dodgy decision go against us (and I guess they would also sometimes go for us) that have these interminable stoppages and only ever half celebrate when the ball goes in

But if we have to have it, the process needs to be changed. You can always find an angle which makes something look a particular way. About 3 angles made it look like Mitoma hadn't handballed it, one did and that's the one they ran for the ref in slow mo and they freeze framed it against his elbow. But we can't tell if it was touching his arm then.

I'm not making a judgement on this incident, more that you can find an incriminating freeze frame to prove basically any decision one way or another

We were sold that it was bought in to correct a howler. I understand the point that officials will sometimes be unsighted, that's fair enough. But the incident should be replayed once on the big screen, in real time from the side TV camera. If the ref can't see that there's a clear error there get on with the game. Ref can either say to the crowd "clear and obvious error" or "no clear and obvious error"

 

[Deadly Danson]

VAR had a shocker last night.

They really did - quite extraordinarily poor. Hinshelwood's foul was a clear and obvious error, the Tarkowski foul was a clear and obvious error and the Brentford penalty shout was as clear and obvious error as you can see - in none of those did VAR intervene. I simply can't see any reason why not - all 3 pass the "one look" threshold and I don't think any of them are particularly subjective. Howard Webb must be tearing his non existent hair out.

 

[dazzer6666]

They really did - quite extraordinarily poor. Hinshelwood's foul was a clear and obvious error, the Tarkowski foul was a clear and obvious error and the Brentford penalty shout was as clear and obvious error as you can see - in none of those did VAR intervene. I simply can't see any reason why not - all 3 pass the "one look" threshold and I don't think any of them are particularly subjective. Howard Webb must be tearing his non existent hair out.

How anyone looked at a single replay of the Tarkowski foul and didn’t see it was a straight red is almost beyond belief……

 

[jcdenton08]

They really did - quite extraordinarily poor. Hinshelwood's foul was a clear and obvious error, the Tarkowski foul was a clear and obvious error and the Brentford penalty shout was as clear and obvious error as you can see - in none of those did VAR intervene. I simply can't see any reason why not - all 3 pass the "one look" threshold and I don't think any of them are particularly subjective. Howard Webb must be tearing his non existent hair out.

Spot on. Dreadful across the board and the three examples you cited are absolute perfect examples of clear and obvious errors. The Tarkowski one was a horrendous tackle.

 

[Simster]

Truth be told, there needs to be a revamp around the penalty rules because foul decisions that don't attract scrutiny elsewhere on the pitch obviously do in the penalty area because of the jeopardy.

I think there needs to be an option to cater for minor infringements in the penalty area. Perhaps where the attacking side gets the choice between a direct free kick inside the area, or an indirect one where no more than a certain number of defenders (to be determined) can be standing in front of the ball.

 

[jcdenton08]

Truth be told, there needs to be a revamp around the penalty rules because foul decisions that don't attract scrutiny elsewhere on the pitch obviously do in the penalty area because of the jeopardy.

I think there needs to be an option to cater for minor infringements in the penalty area. Perhaps where the attacking side gets the choice between a direct free kick inside the area, or an indirect one where no more than a certain number of defenders (to be determined) can be standing in front of the ball.

This sounds like it would just complicate matters even further to be honest

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

I know it's been covered ad nauseum on here but, by the nature of football, many penalty decisions are subjective. All VAR does is offer a load more angles for us to debate - the two non-penalties from last night are a case in point; we can discuss them forever but, there is no definitive answer.

Why on earth can't VAR just be used to overturn 'clear and obvious' errors by the on field officials? If it's not clear and obvious, stick with the on field decision.

Yep ... all we get is analysis paralysis which leads to frustration and the ad nauseam all over social media etc you refer to.

 

[Curious Orange]

Villa defender’s arm was in a natural position and was ball to hand. Although as it travelled a reasonable distance I wondered if we might get it.

This is true, however he did have time to move his arm out of the way. VAR wouldn't have overturned the on-field decision irrespective of which way it went I reckon.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

I think they have changed it that if the goal scorer in anyway touches it with his hand it isn't a goal. However, if there is an accidental handball in the build up and another player scores, then it is a goal. They judged Mitoma deliberately handled the ball, so no goal.

At 1:58 this camera angle shows that the ball hit his shoulder, but not his arm.

 

[Curious Orange]

At 1:58 this camera angle shows that the ball hit his shoulder, but not his arm.

Looks just below the bottom of his armpit to me. 1cm higher and I'd be really pissed off with the decision.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Havnt they made the rule something like if a defender handles the ball in a natural position then it’s not a penalty but if there is any handball in the build up to a goal no matter if it’s a natural position or not then the goal won’t stand? I could be wrong as they change the rules around it here and there.

You are correct. It was a clear handball and the natural position element does not play a part if the outcome is a goal.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Why on earth can't VAR just be used to overturn 'clear and obvious' errors by the on field officials? If it's not clear and obvious, stick with the on field decision.

The problem is the way VAR is implemented in the EPL (but I don't really understand what that problem is). In three seasons watching Red Bull Salzburg VAR has had very little impact on games. Perhaps a short delay once every two games, usually for offside decisions. I can't remember a single decision (or lack of a decision) where I thought VAR got it wrong. This is even true for European games refereed by English refs.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

Spot on. Dreadful across the board and the three examples you cited are absolute perfect examples of clear and obvious errors. The Tarkowski one was a horrendous tackle.

Apparently PGMOL have acknowledged that Tarkowski should have been sent off. Guessing Liverpool will be getting a letter of apology now.

 

[Reddleman]

They should bring in a cricket or tennis system where you get say one/two VAR reviews per half per team and if you waste them tough. Micro analysing every goal is soul destroying.

I am not against it per se, I always think back to the Mason Holgate tackle on Mitoma last season. Only got a yellow and it was most blatant red ever. He gets sent off and we win 5-0. It just shouldn’t be used for every decision.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Anywhere else on the pitch, that’s a foul, ergo, it’s a penalty.

I’d argue it wasn’t a foul, so the anywhere on the pitch doesn’t come into it

 

[SittingbourneSeagull]

Looks just below the bottom of his armpit to me. 1cm higher and I'd be really pissed off with the decision.

Are we really dealing in cms now. Its just ruining the game