[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[dsr-burnley]

The crux of this discussion is right at the point you swerved away from it.

Are they different?

Are their policies going to improve the lot of those people voting for them?

Their leader has form for promising to change for the better working people lives. (He failed at that, did brilliantly for his own wealth and political profile though).

So the question remains the same, why do you think Reform will be different?

I don't know if it will be different. But if the choice is voting for any of several parties who are both incompetent and acting against your interest, and one which may or may not be incompetent but at least claims to be working in your interest, there is clearly a temptation to give it a try.

Don't underestimate the willingness of the electorate to give the unpopular politician a bloody nose. The Democrats in the USA did that, and managed to appoint as candidates two of the few people who could have lost to Trump. As long as "mainstream" politicians persist with the attitude, or apparent attitude, shown on here (ie Reform voters are thick and wrong so we will ignore them), and as long as "mainstream" politicians continue to prove themselves incompetent to do what they want to do, then Reform will get votes.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I suppose "they are stupid because they disagree with me" is less offensive than some other people's view of "they are evil because they disagree with me". Still not a vote winner, though.

Some of Reform's policies are anti-education and anti-intellectual and they're quite open about it. Wanting to introduce ideology over learning in schools and drastically cut down on University courses to only ones that are "useful" (as in useful to a business owning elite who wants a supply of cheap-ish vocational based labour who won't question too much). And this drives some awful generalisations that you actually see on this thread, and others on NSC, from Reformers towards their critics. They're "woke" (and no one yet has defined that properly to me, which is actually the point), snobs, dungaree twitchers with designer dogs and pointless degrees. And they spend so much time on FACTS and picking holes in arguments. The educated bastards.

One reason why Reform gets a lot of support is because the Tories and Labour (in practice if not in theory) are in favour of policies of high benefits, high house price inflation, high immigration, high government spending, and high taxes on working people to pay for it. Reform claims to be different.

It might claim to, but how is it going to afford nationalising things while bumping the income tax threshold up to 20k? How is it going to stop house price inflation if we stop having any foreign labour in the construction industry?

If you can explain that adequately with figures that are accurate and well sourced then maybe you'll start beating the allegations of stupidity?

 

[SouthSaxon]

I'm suggesting that the EU if it actually acted in a coordinated manner to readjust the distribution of wealth, would be far more successful than the UK acting alone.

Neither the EU nor UK is doing anything near enough. But the EU could if it got it's act together, Britain on its own is powerless. We are too exposed to globalised markets and dont have enough weight to make any real mark. So the measures we implement are just lip service that make no difference.

Even the EU would struggle to solve the issue. They might deal with Monaco’s role as a tax haven, but there are plenty of other places that billionaires can turn to.

Global problems require global solutions. However, this would require global consensus, which…well, you don’t need me to tell you

 

[Gabbiano]

Even the EU would struggle to solve the issue. They might deal with Monaco’s role as a tax haven, but there are plenty of other places that billionaires can turn to.

Global problems require global solutions. However, this would require global consensus, which…well, you don’t need me to tell you

Yes, unfortunately I do agree with you. It would require a consensus and a willingness for punitive action that the EU has as yet proven incapable of. It would require going after corporations for profits levied in-country (no easy thing given how these things are offshored and obscure accounting practices), because individuals could still find ways to move their personal wealth to a tax haven pretty easily.

But what other route is there?

If not, it would take a huge global recession or another world war for real change.

 

[TomandJerry]

Some of Reform's policies are anti-education and anti-intellectual and they're quite open about it. Wanting to introduce ideology over learning in schools and drastically cut down on University courses to only ones that are "useful" (as in useful to a business owning elite who wants a supply of cheap-ish vocational based labour who won't question too much). And this drives some awful generalisations that you actually see on this thread, and others on NSC, from Reformers towards their critics. They're "woke" (and no one yet has defined that properly to me, which is actually the point), snobs, dungaree twitchers with designer dogs and pointless degrees. And they spend so much time on FACTS and picking holes in arguments. The educated bastards.



It might claim to, but how is it going to afford nationalising things while bumping the income tax threshold up to 20k? How is it going to stop house price inflation if we stop having any foreign labour in the construction industry?

If you can explain that adequately with figures that are accurate and well sourced then maybe you'll start beating the allegations of stupidity?

"The biggest revenue raisers would come from scrapping targets for net zero - when the UK is adding no additional greenhouse gases to the atmosphere. Reform UK claims that could save £30bn a year. Government figures estimate that offshore wind is cheaper than gas over the long term and is less vulnerable to volatile oil and gas prices.

Reform UK also plans a £35bn-a-year raid on banks by ceasing to pay interest on the £700bn of bonds held at the Bank of England as a result of the post-financial crisis Quantitative Easing programme

Following two cancellation announcements in the past few years, the only section left of the high speed rail link is the one currently being built between London and the West Midlands. It’s now in its peak construction phase. The last official update to Parliament in November 2023 said £27bn had been spent on HS2 so far in 2019 prices, £24.6bn of that on the first phase. That figure will have risen since then.

The government thinks the total cost of London-Birmingham will be up to £54bn, although HS2 Ltd has come up with a higher figure. Reform says scrapping the rest of the project would save £25bn."

Three ways I can find that Reform are stating to raise more capital

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't know if it will be different. But if the choice is voting for any of several parties who are both incompetent and acting against your interest, and one which may or may not be incompetent but at least claims to be working in your interest, there is clearly a temptation to give it a try.

Don't underestimate the willingness of the electorate to give the unpopular politician a bloody nose. The Democrats in the USA did that, and managed to appoint as candidates two of the few people who could have lost to Trump. As long as "mainstream" politicians persist with the attitude, or apparent attitude, shown on here (ie Reform voters are thick and wrong so we will ignore them), and as long as "mainstream" politicians continue to prove themselves incompetent to do what they want to do, then Reform will get votes.

Those who want to vote Reform, can you not see the hypocrisy of a leader who never has surgeries with his constituents, is always flying out of the country, lives in Brussels with his French wife, and whose children have German passports?
Then there is Richard Tice, whose paramour, Isabelle Oakshott, lives in Dubai, so is an economic migrant.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I suspect one reason people are supporting Reform is as a reaction to those (like the majority on here) who say that anyone who doesn’t agree with their politics is wrong, thick, racist and so on. This arrogance has created the space for Reform whom are attracting support simply by saying ‘we are listening to and understanding your concerns and you are not thick, but have a right to be heard as much as the ‘lanyard class’ ( an expression coined in an excellent Times column on the subject recently).

Look back nine posts from yours where I showed the hypocrisy of name calling.

 

[TomandJerry]

Those who want to vote Reform, can you not see the hypocrisy of a leader who never has surgeries with his constituents, is always flying out of the country, lives in Brussels with his French wife, and whose children have German passports?
Then there is Richard Tice, whose paramour, Isabelle Oakshott, lives in Dubai, so is an economic migrant.

Farage has bought a house in Clacton and does meet his constituents

https://www.clactonandfrintongazett...eets-residents-regularly-buying-clacton-home/

 

[dsr-burnley]

Some of Reform's policies are anti-education and anti-intellectual and they're quite open about it. Wanting to introduce ideology over learning in schools and drastically cut down on University courses to only ones that are "useful" (as in useful to a business owning elite who wants a supply of cheap-ish vocational based labour who won't question too much). And this drives some awful generalisations that you actually see on this thread, and others on NSC, from Reformers towards their critics. They're "woke" (and no one yet has defined that properly to me, which is actually the point), snobs, dungaree twitchers with designer dogs and pointless degrees. And they spend so much time on FACTS and picking holes in arguments. The educated bastards.



It might claim to, but how is it going to afford nationalising things while bumping the income tax threshold up to 20k? How is it going to stop house price inflation if we stop having any foreign labour in the construction industry?

If you can explain that adequately with figures that are accurate and well sourced then maybe you'll start beating the allegations of stupidity?

You aren't going to persuade people to vote for Bridget Phillipson by telling them that her opponents are in favour of ideology over learning in schools. If Reform do have such an ideology, it is only competing with Labour's ideology, and Labour's ideology for many years has been to see what works for other people's children and put a stop to it. Tories have been doing moderately well on education so they might have a chance.

Similarly, you aren't going to persuade people to vote Labour or Conservative because Reform's budget isn't adequately costed. Many people believe (with very good reason!) that Labour's budget is full of holes and the Tories had 14 years and their budget was full of holes too.

 

[Guinness Boy]

"The biggest revenue raisers would come from scrapping targets for net zero - when the UK is adding no additional greenhouse gases to the atmosphere. Reform UK claims that could save £30bn a year. Government figures estimate that offshore wind is cheaper than gas over the long term and is less vulnerable to volatile oil and gas prices.

Reform UK also plans a £35bn-a-year raid on banks by ceasing to pay interest on the £700bn of bonds held at the Bank of England as a result of the post-financial crisis Quantitative Easing programme

Following two cancellation announcements in the past few years, the only section left of the high speed rail link is the one currently being built between London and the West Midlands. It’s now in its peak construction phase. The last official update to Parliament in November 2023 said £27bn had been spent on HS2 so far in 2019 prices, £24.6bn of that on the first phase. That figure will have risen since then.

The government thinks the total cost of London-Birmingham will be up to £54bn, although HS2 Ltd has come up with a higher figure. Reform says scrapping the rest of the project would save £25bn."

Three ways I can find that Reform are stating to raise more capital

That wasn't what I asked.

How much will it cost to raise the income tax start point to 20k a year? And how do we prevent supply side house inflation if we don't have people working in construction? Those were the questions.

The net zero figures are disputed, mainly because renewable energy will be more expensive to set up but then much cheaper in the long run.

Stopping the interest would basically be an accounting trick, at best cosmetic and at worst dangerous. It would reduce the apparent cost of debt service—but only artificially, as BoE liabilities (like reserves) still exist and pay interest to commercial banks. It would stop the BoE being able to control interest rates, as it can't do so if being denied asset income. It would put off investors in gilts and potentially affect the UK's credit rating. And it would put the government in legal difficulty since bonds are contracts.

So with more expensive energy long term and the BOE still having to pay interest on liabilities but being unable to control interest rates, how is the government going to balance the books and prevent house price inflation?

 

[TomandJerry]

That wasn't what I asked.

How much will it cost to raise the income tax start point to 20k a year? And how do we prevent supply side house inflation if we don't have people working in construction? Those were the questions.

The net zero figures are disputed, mainly because renewable energy will be more expensive to set up but then much cheaper in the long run.

Stopping the interest would basically be an accounting trick, at best cosmetic and at worst dangerous. It would reduce the apparent cost of debt service—but only artificially, as BoE liabilities (like reserves) still exist and pay interest to commercial banks. It would stop the BoE being able to control interest rates, as it can't do so if being denied asset income. It would put off investors in gilts and potentially affect the UK's credit rating. And it would put the government in legal difficulty since bonds are contracts.

So with more expensive energy long term and the BOE still having to pay interest on liabilities but being unable to control interest rates, how is the government going to balance the books and prevent house price inflation?

This is the best I can do, let me know if it adds up or makes no sense - I don't understand the numbers very well

 

[BLOCK F]

Many are still waiting for an answer from our Reform supporting colleagues.

It's a simple question: What do you like about Reform?

But you are all so quiet on this. The answer is usually 'I'm not a reform voter'.

Well, Never’s post did make me laugh as it as quite witty and I can assure you that I am certainly not a Reform Voter. I do appreciate a witty remark, though.

 

[BadFish]

This is the best I can do, let me know if it adds up or makes no sense - I don't understand the numbers very well

View attachment 201675View attachment 201676

I would be very concerned about more (and quite vague) cuts to government departments. After Austerity, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't much left to try and cut.

I would also be concerned that they would try and replace the workers in those government departments with outside contractors or consultants with no obligation to act on the behalf of the people (This happened in Australia a few years ago and was very dodgy - and cost about twice the money they saved.)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Farage has said he wants to cut bereavement leave, and maternity leave (including following a miscarriage).

Basically, he thinks workers get too many holidays and have too many rights. He and the 3 Reform MPs voted against workers' rights recently in the House of Commons. He also wants an insurance based health service, which would include paying for our drugs.
He wants us to be more like America where big bosses earn billions a day, and workers get little. Profit is everything.

 

[BLOCK F]

I suspect one reason people are supporting Reform is as a reaction to those (like the majority on here) who say that anyone who doesn’t agree with their politics is wrong, thick, racist and so on. This arrogance has created the space for Reform whom are attracting support simply by saying ‘we are listening to and understanding your concerns and you are not thick, but have a right to be heard as much as the ‘lanyard class’ ( an expression coined in an excellent Times column on the subject recently).

Yes. I thought that was a good article, but it probably wouldn’t go down too well with a number of posters on here.

 

[BadFish]

Farage has said he wants to cut bereavement leave, and maternity leave (including following a miscarriage).

Basically, he thinks workers get too many holidays and have too many rights. He and the 3 Reform MPs voted against workers' rights recently in the House of Commons. He also wants an insurance based health service, which would include paying for our drugs.
He wants us to be more like America where big bosses earn billions a day, and workers get little. Profit is everything.

Interesting that he votes against those that he claims to represent.

Voting record - Nigel Farage MP, Clacton

See how Nigel Farage voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.

www.theyworkforyou.com

 

[Chicken Run]

Farage has said he wants to cut bereavement leave, and maternity leave (including following a miscarriage).

Basically, he thinks workers get too many holidays and have too many rights. He and the 3 Reform MPs voted against workers' rights recently in the House of Commons. He also wants an insurance based health service, which would include paying for our drugs.
He wants us to be more like America where big bosses earn billions a day, and workers get little. Profit is everything.

I believe the protocol as highlighted by one of the NSC’s greatest minds whilst communicating with @TomandJerry is that you ought to provide a link connected to your post

 

[TomandJerry]

I would be very concerned about more (and quite vague) cuts to government departments. After Austerity, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't much left to try and cut.

I would also be concerned that they would try and replace the workers in those government departments with outside contractors or consultants with no obligation to act on the behalf of the people (This happened in Australia a few years ago and was very dodgy - and cost about twice the money they saved.)

Those under "cost pledges" in the second photo are those budgets being increased - I think - so department spending would be increasing

 

[Guinness Boy]

This is the best I can do, let me know if it adds up or makes no sense - I don't understand the numbers very well

View attachment 201675View attachment 201676

Those are their own back of a fag packet calculations from their own website. "Pledges" is extraordinarily high level and, as I've already highlighted, the BoE interest pledge will not save a penny, may crash the economy and is illegal.

 

[BadFish]

Those under "cost pledges" in the second photo are those budgets being increased - I think - so department spending would be increasing

Interesting, so I wonder what is being cut?

I find it suspicious that they have listed what they are going to increase, but not what is being cut. Looks like spin to me.