New Poll. Europe: In or Out

[brighton fella]

No, you're the person making claims of vote-rigging in major European countries so you provide the evidence. You know what the definition of vote-rigging is and you seem confident that it has happened so you should find it easy.

Evidence though, not vague claims which seem to involve something else.

the irish voted a clear no the the EU the first time around yet the second time around when they were made to vote again they voted yes, they were told to keep voting until the yes won it.. i suppose in your books that sort of thing is considered both fair and acceptable..
the dutch and the french just like the irish also voted a clear no but again that result never suited the EU so therefore the EU came up with the lisbon treaty. i suppose you think that is fair too.
no you are quite right this was not vote rigging but only because it didn't have to go that far. but all the same it was a filthy dirty rotten scam, that people like you find acceptable. .
.
maybe .

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Staying in EU 'exposes UK to terror risk', says Iain Duncan Smith........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

So there we go, a good reason to leave the EU, IS and Al Qaeda will ignore us from then on apparently and will, we assume, forgive us for bombing the crap out of them.

To quote a different government minister.. 'The former head of Interpol says the EU’s internal borders policy is “like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe” .... perhaps IDS has a point?

 

[cunning fergus]

With respect, I don't think it is as simple as you suggest. Costs are important, which is why Nissan makes cars in India. Unfettered access to the single market is also important, which is why Nissan makes cars in England. There are other factors too, such as access to suitable labour, local subsidies and physical communications. It is not a simple calculation but it would be wrong to suggest that location within the EU is not a hugely important consideration for non-European carmakers deciding where to build their factories.

Sure it's not simple, however the threat that car manufacturers will leave the UK because of Brexit is similarly a simplistic construct.

Honda in Swindon had to lay off thousands of workers in the last few years because of falling demand in the EU, which is the only market the cars are produced for. So those workers jobs were not safe by being in the EU.

Ford on the other had shifted jobs from the UK (and EU) to Turkey which is not in the EU, this was on the back of Ford receiving money from the EU to build the factory.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/100...oan_to_boost_Turkey_factory___and_close_ours/

Jaguar on the other hand increased production recently to meet supply outside the EU.

3 examples that prove being in the EU is not a binary protection for workers, and neither is being out by the way.

The one common denominator will be costs, Spain is now attractive for car manufacturing in the EU because costs are 40% lower than they were pre euro crisis. Good for car manufacturers, bad for workers.

Having our own currency allows the Govt to manage some of that, this is a good thing............in short we will be fine out if that comes to pass.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

here's a point for both sides to chew on: the outcome of the referendum is not binding. its basically a national opinion poll. and we have seen from previous form that the EU doesnt accept referendum outcomes that go against it, so isnt likely to change tack on UK leaving. so i expect that in the event of a Leave/Out vote winning, it will trigger a new round of negotiation, possibly even real treaty change.

what will catagorically not happen is that on the 24th June everything changes, hand over the keys and leave the EU immeidately, impose tariffs, stop emigration and immigration, stop benefits, close all business and cultral ties with the continent. nothing will happen for months even years as things like contracts and new trade deals negotiated etc.

except, lets go back to the earlier point, that the EU wont accept the result. their first response will be to attempt to negotiate a better deal, probably genuine transition of powers back to nations, treaty change will be on the cards. losing the UK would be a massive loss to them, not just financially but from the purpose of the project.

if the Stay vote wins it will mean we have to settle for EU as it is now and planned for in the future - further intergration, more powers to Brussels etc, a gentle unwinding of what pitiful consessions Cameron has brought back from 6 months negotiation will be eroded away.

where im going with this is that, for the undecided, or the unconvinced Stay/Inner its a sensible approach to vote to Leave, to get us a better deal (and another referendum on that).

There is not going to be an option to vote for 'leave and then renogiate staying in' is there ?

Vote leave, means leaving.

 

[cunning fergus]

Staying in EU 'exposes UK to terror risk', says Iain Duncan Smith........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

So there we go, a good reason to leave the EU, IS and Al Qaeda will ignore us from then on apparently and will, we assume, forgive us for bombing the crap out of them.

Well, the people of Paris are no doubt sleeping safely in their beds by having all that protection provided by the EU against terrorism.

That is not to ignore Ron Wainwright's comments this weekend that up to 5000 Islamic terrorists could be at large in the EU having gained citizenship with other EU states and having used the refugee crisis to enter the EU.

If you think that means we are safer by being tied into the EU and having free movement of EU citizens then you must be a nut job.

Oh yes, Rob Wainwright is Head of Europol.

 

[beorhthelm]

Vote leave, means leaving.

thats precisely my point: it doesnt. it means the population believe we should leave, on the current terms and conditions, its not a descision that has immediate action. a Bill to leave would then have to go to parliament, debated and passed, and theres plenty of time for delay and renegotiation. see the Scottish referendum where this topic was covered, if they voted to leave it was expected to take upto 2 years to work through the process of enacting the change to indepedence.

 

[cunning fergus]

the irish voted a clear no the the EU the first time around yet the second time around when they were made to vote again they voted yes, they were told to keep voting until the yes won it.. i suppose in your books that sort of thing is considered both fair and acceptable..
the dutch and the french just like the irish also voted a clear no but again that result never suited the EU so therefore the EU came up with the lisbon treaty. i suppose you think that is fair too.
no you are quite right this was not vote rigging but only because it didn't have to go that far. but all the same it was a filthy dirty rotten scam, that people like you find acceptable. .
.
maybe .

Highlighting Ireland is interesting, as I am working there a lot currently.

The Irish position is unique to the EU in that nearly 50% of its trade is with the U.K. A further 40% is with the US.

If there is a Brexit then Ireland will be a EU state in the Euro zone that trades substantively outside the EU.

They could not economically wear any trade sanctions or penalties foisted on the UK by a vindictive EU following a democratic mandate by the British people to leave the EU.

Such a situation could cause them to have to consider their own position in the EU and Euro zone, now this would be a game changer, and proof that all the bluster of trade tariffs etc. are just simplistic and childish.

The exit of an EU member is one thing, the exit of a Euro zone member is entirely another.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

thats precisely my point: it doesnt. it means the population believe we should leave, on the current terms and conditions, its not a descision that has immediate action. a Bill to leave would then have to go to parliament, debated and passed, and theres plenty of time for delay and renegotiation. see the Scottish referendum where this topic was covered, if they voted to leave it was expected to take upto 2 years to work through the process of enacting the change to indepedence.

Of course it doesn't mean leave the next day.

The exit terms must be agreed, but leave we must.

 

[Bladders]

Everyone I speak to wants to leave or is thinking about voting to leave over staying , but the polls have stay in the lead.

Have the polls got it badly wrong again?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Everyone I speak to wants to leave or is thinking about voting to leave over staying , but the polls have stay in the lead.

Have the polls got it badly wrong again?

Quite a lot of fluctuating opinions over recent months and differences depending on how the poll is carried out . All very confusing

 

[beorhthelm]

Of course it doesn't mean leave the next day.

The exit terms must be agreed, but leave we must.

must? you'll need to talk to the good people of Ireland, Holland, Denmark, France about how referenda on euro and Lisbon treaty turned out.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Everyone I speak to wants to leave or is thinking about voting to leave over staying , but the polls have stay in the lead.

Have the polls got it badly wrong again?

Maybe the have, or maybe you know the wrong people!

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

must? you'll need to talk to the good people of Ireland, Holland, Denmark, France about how referenda on euro and Lisbon treaty turned out.

As I understand it, those referendums were about treaty changes ?

They were not about the decision to leave the EU.

I'm sorry but I just do not see how voting to leave the EU, is actually voting to stay and negotiate different terms.

Please point me to the confirmation that leave means 'stay in with unspecified changes'.

Surely, voting leave actually means that we leave the EU.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Reading through here just seems to emphasise what has been said in various places already.
- one third of the country are firm Inners and won't change.
- one third of the country are firm Outers and won't change.
- so it's the third in the middle who really matter....... So they'd better get it right.

I'm a firm dyed in the wool Inner and have been for 45 years.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

What was the point in fighting 2 world wars, and over a million British lives in the cause of not being a slave to a European power.

You could also go back a bit further, and the threat of Napolean, helped by British victories at trafalger and waterloo

What was the point in us Normans invading and taking over Britain if we're just going to split away from the old country?

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm sorry but I just do not see how voting to leave the EU, is actually voting to stay and negotiate different terms.

im saying that's the case officially in the first instance, but that after a Leave result there would be a negotiation at keeping the UK and a second referendum in practice. it is not the immediate all changing vote the Stay camp would have us believe. they say themselves that all sorts of matters will need to be resolved and renegotiated, well the structure of the EU and a proper treaty to reflect those changes is therefore going to be on the table.

 

[Eeyore]

Quite a lot of fluctuating opinions over recent months and differences depending on how the poll is carried out . All very confusing

They count for nothing now the process is in full swing. The path now is predictable.

Expect a swing towards 'Out'. Fueled by endless negative headlines from the Murdoch press and the Daily Express. Big business may scare a number back towards the 'In' camp with tales of economic ruin.

I'd say, as someone else has said above, that two thirds of us can't be swayed. Like the Scots referendum though, it's unpredictable.

I'm firmly 'In' and won't be swayed.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

im saying that's the case officially in the first instance, but that after a Leave result there would be a negotiation at keeping the UK and a second referendum in practice. it is not the immediate all changing vote the Stay camp would have us believe. they say themselves that all sorts of matters will need to be resolved and renegotiated, well the structure of the EU and a proper treaty to reflect those changes is therefore going to be on the table.

Can you point me to something official that a 2nd referendum is even a possibility ?

 

[Bladders]

Maybe the have, or maybe you know the wrong people!

...or the right people

 

[beorhthelm]

Can you point me to something official that a 2nd referendum is even a possibility ?

no, any more than i could point to anything that says its not a possibility, which is the point. i'm highlighting that its probably quite likely.