[Football] Modern football is a battle of systems (Why Roy Keane was wrong to rant about Utd stars)

[perseus]

Pressing is not all it is cracked up to be: https://www.martiperarnau.com/diffe...opps-and-guardiolas-counterpressing-concepts/

Brighton manager Chris Hughton says "brave movement" from your central midfielders can help you create space and evade the mass of bodies swarming the man on the ball.
Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/tactics/countering-team-press-high-pitch#41GTmRCif3OjZiPq.99

In my words: players with technical enough ability and fitness to play there way out of the press. If both teams press and neither can control the ball properly, it makes for an ugly game of football.

PS: I don't envisage chasing good passing sides around like blue-arsed flies. Selective pressing is good, at certain times of the game and in certain parts of the pitch (easier to press full backs on the wings) to avoid burn out. Pressing forces the opposition to play long out of defence,

“To make the opposition play the long ball game you have to press high up the pitch. When their goalkeeper has the ball your front two need to drop a little deeper to encourage him to play the ball out.
Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/perform...ition-play-long-ball-game#3WIh2towCCxQLKIj.99

 

[perseus]

Newcastle pressed us pretty well. On those rare occasions we actually had the ball.

I noted that as well and we a bit lazy trying to play out of the press.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Consistently, yes. Look at the squad depths of the big six.

If you look back at our performances in the first half of the season, we were pressing all over the pitch and getting results for our efforts. Bruno was quoted as saying last pre-season was the hardest he'd done, in terms of the running and focus on pressing.
But because our squad is rubbish for this level, a couple of injuries and the replacement players can't do that. And those, like Propper and Murray, are tired from doing so every game. Therefore we sit back and soak up pressure. And lose far more.

Leeds are a huge fish in that division. Their squad will be better and fitter than at least 15 other teams in that league and the tactics probably give them a 4-5 place advantage.

I'm not saying Hughton should try and play a high press with the squad we've got. I'm thinking more that we play the opposite of the high press, i.e. we sit back, we have two wide men who look to sling it into the box to an old-fashioned No. 9, the midfield never break forward as a unit. If we play the majority of next season with Stephens and Propper sitting deep and Murray / Locadia isolated then God help us.

 

[Triggaaar]

The best football article you'll read today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...eutralises-philosophies-of-the-past-1.3874358

You had me at 'Why Roy Keane was wrong'.

The article highlights just how nuanced the game has become, and why I find it hard to come to easy conclusions on what the manager and players have done wrong.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The best football article you'll read today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...eutralises-philosophies-of-the-past-1.3874358

Great article, really decent football journalism and spot on for my money. Oddly me and the mate I sit with at games were discussing on Saturday, after our match, how individual player creativity had been replaced with systematic football.

It's worth extending the point to our current malaise - we believe the players are largely having the creativity coached out of them rather than being exploited. Look at Bissouma, woefully under used for a young exciting midfielder but because his touch isn't always perfect and neither is his decision making, he makes way for the more pedestrain but experienced Propper. When we've needed to scrap for points Bruno has come in for Montoya. Montoya naturally wants to attack more and yet Bruno has the better touch and, crucially, set up the goal on Sat in a very similar way to which the article discusses - crosses from full backs. Montoya is obviously quicker but knows the side less well and is more often caught upfield. Ergo, in a system that looks for a clean sheet first, Bruno should have been the natural choice all along.

Can we press? Yes. We did it to great effect against Man U and, at times, fairly well against Palace and Everton at home as well. Can we press every game? No. Someone like Man City or Liverpool at their own grounds would take us to bits, so we end up much deeper away from home. When the going gets tough we revert to away type. Hughton's "don't concede lads" (knowing as [MENTION=10202]Not Andy Naylor[/MENTION] points out in Brighton Up) that a clean sheet can often mean a win, gets interpreted as "sit deep", "don't make a mistake" and, of course, we do.

We will still need to be systematic next season. As the article points out, Pep, Klopp and others have transformed the game. Individual brlliance and effort on their own will not be enough. But I'd like to see a new system, one where these are at least encouraged, where "don't concede" becomes "let's get on the scoresheet". Simple, small adjustments that we should be capable of. Under CH I'm not sure we will be.

 

[Lindfield by the Pond]

Good read. Some good points well backed up. Cheers.

 

[Weststander]

The players on 5live tonight gently dismissed the article.

Agreeing instead that it’s about individual contests on the field, with invariably better players coming out on top.

 

[Barham's tash]

The players on 5live tonight gently dismissed the article.

Agreeing instead that it’s about individual contests on the field, with invariably better players coming out on top.

But they’re falling into the same trap as Keane et al whereby the game they knew isn’t relevant anymore just as the game since the birth of the Premier League to maybe five years ago has no contextual relevance to the 70/80’s and dominance of Liverpool, and again how that can’t be compared to the high scoring flip flop of the50/60’s.

The game moves on, pundits don’t because naturally they gravitate towards comparing it to the game in their day.

 

[Guinness Boy]

But they’re falling into the same trap as Keane et al whereby the game they knew isn’t relevant anymore just as the game since the birth of the Premier League to maybe five years ago has no contextual relevance to the 70/80’s and dominance of Liverpool, and again how that can’t be compared to the high scoring flip flop of the50/60’s.

The game moves on, pundits don’t because naturally they gravitate towards comparing it to the game in their day.

Exactly. Keane’s generation will back up Keane. By the time Sterling or Robertson are pundits the game will have moved on again.


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[Triggaaar]

The players on 5live tonight gently dismissed the article.

Agreeing instead that it’s about individual contests on the field, with invariably better players coming out on top.

There's no doubt that if you took City's players with Hughton's system, and played them against Brighton's players with Pep's system, the City players would win. Being able to beat your man, having the pace to outrun the opposition, being able to cross better and strike a better shot are all massive factors. But when a few teams each have a lot of good players, the system becomes the determining factor. Completely dismissing the article seems odd.

 

[blue-shifted]

I think that article accurately explains why Man City and Liverpool are 20 points better than everyone else. They both have a manager who thinks about the game and has a very specific vision of how he wants his side to play. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd have an assortment of variously hired, but clearly very good, mercenary players, which are easily good enough to swat also rans like us aside the great majority of the time, but won't get them near the league leaders.

Man City and Liverpool's example shows what happens when all at the club have a sense of purpose and all are pulling in the same direction. Crucially it involves getting an intelligent manager with a vision in place then subordinating everything at the club to him

 

[jamie (not that one)]

Top article. Pundits seem to be fence sitting clones these days with the exception, including Keane, who is most likely too arrogant to be able to see the new face of football when always considering his own achievements.

Roy Keane - the man always questioning the hunger and desire of other players while conveniently forgetting he walked out on Ireland, as their best player, during the 2002 world cup to go and walk his dogs because he didn't like the coach. Helmet.

 

[Weststander]

I think that article accurately explains why Man City and Liverpool are 20 points better than everyone else. They both have a manager who thinks about the game and has a very specific vision of how he wants his side to play. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd have an assortment of variously hired, but clearly very good, mercenary players, which are easily good enough to swat also rans like us aside the great majority of the time, but won't get them near the league leaders.

Man City and Liverpool's example shows what happens when all at the club have a sense of purpose and all are pulling in the same direction. Crucially it involves getting an intelligent manager with a vision in place then subordinating everything at the club to him

Money is key as well.

Mansour gives Guardiola the largest player budget in the history of the game worldwide. 11 ready made high quality replacements if De Bruyne or anyone get’s injured. Whilst Liverpool and Spurs have an amazing skill at raking in top dollar on all player sales. Too many examples to mention, but include Sakho, K.Walker, Coutinho.

Chelsea, Arsenal and ManU throw money at issues, leaving them with mega wages to players such as Sanchez and Ozil sitting on the bench, whilst allowing Ramsey to cleverly run down his contract. Even those three clubs don’t have the bottomless pit of Mansour level funds, so contract and transfer blunders hit them.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Top article. Pundits seem to be fence sitting clones these days with the exception, including Keane, who is most likely too arrogant to be able to see the new face of football when always considering his own achievements.

Roy Keane - the man always questioning the hunger and desire of other players while conveniently forgetting he walked out on Ireland, as their best player, during the 2002 world cup to go and walk his dogs because he didn't like the coach. Helmet.

He is a massive BELL. A very entertaining one, but still a BELL.