[News] MMR, Vaccinate or not.

[beorhthelm]

[Citation needed]

i think what you, and some others, have over looked is that THPP comment is observation. MMR and autism are now inextricably linked in the public conscious, however falsely. we have read here a heartfelt account of not wanting to take the risk. saying this doesnt mean supporting the link and the discredited research.

 

[The Clamp]

People who don’t vaccinate their children should be forced to and if they still don’t comply, criminal proceedings.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

People who don’t vaccinate their children should be forced to and if they still don’t comply, criminal proceedings.

I'm a tad uncomfortable at enforced medicine in whatever form it takes. It reminds me of the argument of putting floride in the general water supply to help peoples teeth despite it being a poison. By all means call people idiots for not having their children vaccinated ( and I agree ) but forcing medicine on people doesn't sit well with me.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm a tad uncomfortable at enforced medicine in whatever form it takes. It reminds me of the argument of putting floride in the general water supply to help peoples teeth despite it being a poison. By all means call people idiots for not having their children vaccinated ( and I agree ) but forcing medicine on people doesn't sit well with me.

I take your point. But people have forgotten the damage measles can do to a child. Life altering, brain damaging misery. Putting a child at risk of that should be criminal.

 

[Stat Brother]

'Patient zero' of Michigan measles outbreak thought he was immune because he had it before

https://abcnews.go.com/US/patient-michigan-measles-outbreak-thought-immune-doctor/story?id=62455566


The man who is believed to have brought the ongoing measles outbreak to Michigan thought he was immune to the disease, according to a doctor who spoke with him.

The man, who remains unidentified but is believed to be "patient zero" in Michigan, traveled to the Great Lake state from New York in March.

The man had previously traveled to the U.S. from Israel in November, making it unlikely that he was infected then, and more likely that he caught the disease while in New York, according to Steve McGraw, the emergency medical services director for Oakland County, Michigan, who spoke to him days after he was diagnosed.

It is not clear if the man is a U.S. citizen.

There have been hundreds of confirmed cases of measles in New York since an outbreak started there in 2018, and has continued into 2019.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm a tad uncomfortable at enforced medicine in whatever form it takes. It reminds me of the argument of putting floride in the general water supply to help peoples teeth despite it being a poison. By all means call people idiots for not having their children vaccinated ( and I agree ) but forcing medicine on people doesn't sit well with me.

except fluoride may be toxic at certain levels, way, way above the level added to water. whats more its only added to water in a few places, and there is similar levels in mineral water we dont hear anything about. we also have chlorine in all water to clean it, not much fuss made about that either.

a better argument against fluoride is that we probably dont need it, hence why only a few areas do add it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It doesn't help when the government very publicly ignore their own experts like David Nutt.

That was ecstacy (and cannabis). These are not medicinces (although one may be classified as one soon). Ignoring Nutt has nothing to do with the MMR debacle. The process was pretty much unavoidable after the horse bolted (the paper published).

The triple vaccine episode was a classic case of fake news (in this case falsely given credence by the Lancet - see my comments on that rag elsewhere). Imagine I published in a 'good' journal that selexipag, approved in 2015 for pulmonary artery hypotension, may cause birth defects, based on an underpowered meta analysis. Let's imagine the study was flawed and should never have been published. Now, you are minister of health and Gavin Esler says to you 'mate, is that drug safe or not?' The minister has no choice other than to say that this 'new evidence' is inconclusive and 'more work needs to be done' but ' there is no compelling reason to assume this new data is correct'.

Immediately people stop taking the drug. A few weeks later, after another look at the published work, experts publish in an editorial that the original findsings are not reliable. Six months later it is revealed the senior author has taken massive 'consultancy' money from the company promoting a rival drug.....two years later he is struck off for malpractice.

However, far too many members of the public, fuelled by scare stories in the Daily Mail, anticorporate agitators in the media and (now, blogs), together with the collective wisdom of the saloon bar or the queue in Tesco, will carry on saying 'no smoke without fire' and 'would you risk that, on your kiddy?' for years to come.

That is pretty much what happened with the MMR autism 'study' and author. However, the effect of fake news does persist.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Ukraine recently had an outbreak as only 42% were vaccinated. Three hundred thousand are infected resulting in 11 deaths.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190318-ukraine-measles-outbreak-kills-11-infects-30000

 

[beorhthelm]

...

However, far too many members of the public, fuelled by scare stories in the Daily Mail, anticorporate agitators in the media and (now, blogs), together with the collective wisdom of the saloon bar or the queue in Tesco, will carry on saying 'no smoke without fire' and 'would you risk that, on your kiddy?' for years to come.

That is pretty much what happened with the MMR autism 'study' and author. However, the effect of fake news does persist.

excellent summary. so we should ban the Daily Mail and anti-corporate agitators? certainly enough evidence they are detrimental to health.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That was ecstacy (and cannabis). These are not medicinces (although one may be classified as one soon). Ignoring Nutt has nothing to do with the MMR debacle. The process was pretty much unavoidable after the horse bolted (the paper published).

The triple vaccine episode was a classic case of fake news (in this case falsely given credence by the Lancet - see my comments on that rag elsewhere). Imagine I published in a 'good' journal that selexipag, approved in 2015 for pulmonary artery hypotension, may cause birth defects, based on an underpowered meta analysis. Let's imagine the study was flawed and should never have been published. Now, you are minister of health and Gavin Esler says to you 'mate, is that drug safe or not?' The minister has no choice other than to say that this 'new evidence' is inconclusive and 'more work needs to be done' but ' there is no compelling reason to assume this new data is correct'.

Immediately people stop taking the drug. A few weeks later, after another look at the published work, experts publish in an editorial that the original findsings are not reliable. Six months later it is revealed the senior author has taken massive 'consultancy' money from the company promoting a rival drug.....two years later he is struck off for malpractice.

However, far too many members of the public, fuelled by scare stories in the Daily Mail, anticorporate agitators in the media and (now, blogs), together with the collective wisdom of the saloon bar or the queue in Tesco, will carry on saying 'no smoke without fire' and 'would you risk that, on your kiddy?' for years to come.

That is pretty much what happened with the MMR autism 'study' and author. However, the effect of fake news does persist.

I've had discussions on Facebook where I have been accused of 'working for a pharmaceutical company' simply by saying children should get vaccinated. Most of that stuff is coming from America.

 

[A1X]

Should be illegal to deny vaccination.

This.

Some kids can't have it because of various underlying health reasons. Parents who refuse the vaccine for no reason other than they're paranoid wankers aren't just putting their own kids in danger but those other kids who have no choice. Honestly they should be charged with endangering the lives of others.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

excellent summary. so we should ban the Daily Mail and anti-corporate agitators? certainly enough evidence they are detrimental to health.

I realise you jest here but it is a point worthy of a response.

I have no problem with propaganda (within reason - libel and flagrant falsehood pedaled for financial or political purposes can and should be challenged in court). But we must respond and act according to the laws. The sort of people who seek out the Mail or (other end of spectrum) some anarchist blog, or indeed the unlovely Breitbart or some mad nazi site for their information and guidance on life choices deserve all the stupidity and misfortune that falls upon them.

It is the effect of propaganda on those close to the mugs that feed on it that is more a problem. Nevertheless the worst effects can and should be mitigated by laws. For example, children should not be taken out of the health system by parents (e.g., denied transfusions by Jehova Witness parents) and they should not be allowed into schools (and the parents should be prosecuted) if they are not vaccinated.

I am very much not a liberal, by the way. Or a hippy. Freedoms are fine and good but the limit should be where harm can be done to others (and in some instances to yourself); harm and in some cases inconvenience (hence laws on nuisance noise and neighbours). Obviously there are grey areas (at one extreme, would the state be able to wash its hands of me if I get lung cancer from secondary smoke from a pub garden, when I could and should have sat elsewhere? No, that is too far) but we eventually get to the right place (current drink driving laws and seat belt laws - widely mocked by your Farrage types in the 70s).

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

i think what you, and some others, have over looked is that THPP comment is observation. MMR and autism are now inextricably linked in the public conscious, however falsely. we have read here a heartfelt account of not wanting to take the risk. saying this doesnt mean supporting the link and the discredited research.

Quite possibly, which if so - cannot disagree.

 

[dazzer6666]

https://uokhun.uk/2019/02/09/here-a...opev25Y-8FFzQhUApLX3xVo0iF4oGCIEutImR_0yHdkjk

 

[WATFORD zero]

Interesting Facts for people who believe getting three individual vaccines are a good alternative.


The NHS does not recommend single measles, mumps or rubella vaccines, as there's no evidence to support their use or to suggest that they're safer than MMR.
Having single vaccines could also put your child at risk of catching measles, mumps or rubella in the time between the doses of each of the vaccines.
Some private clinics in the UK offer single vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella, but the NHS does not keep a list of them.

This is because clinics that offer these privately are unlicensed, which means there are no checks on their safety and effectiveness.

No country in the world recommends MMR and then offers parents a choice of having single vaccines instead.
Every independent expert group around the world, including the World Health Organization, supports the use of MMR, and none supports the use of single vaccines.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-questions-answers/

So give your kids injections from unlicensed clinics who exist to make profit - Good call

 

[TheJasperCo]

There was a measles outbreak recently in New York state, that led to local public health officials imposing a curfew on all unvaccinated children and banning them from literally all 'public spaces' and public buildings. Quite appropriate in one way, but I feel the kids are being punished either through their own parents' ignorance, or the ignorance of other parents in not having their children immunised.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

When was that? Being misinformed is an excuse. However, not today. We should make a law of it now. Getting beyond a joke. Being misinformed and making a wrong call is fine, but when the evidence has been published . . . .

2004

I have to say I am surprised that people are still refusing the MMR on the basis of it's link to autism.
I had assumed that the vast majority of people were aware that the theory had been completely debunked.

Clearly not.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

There are a number of people that go through a stem cell transplant as a treatment for blood disorders. This aims to destroy malignant cells in the blood but also decimates patient's immune system. Their immunity re-boots over a period of weeks or months but the immunity from childhood injections is lost and over the next year or so they have to have these injections again. Not a huge problem if the vast majority of the population is immunised but life-threatening if they are not. I guess I am taking this a bit personally as I have this treatment to look forward to next month. The implications of people not trusting experts are becoming more and more serious.

 

[A1X]

2004

I have to say I am surprised that people are still refusing the MMR on the basis of it's link to autism.
I had assumed that the vast majority of people were aware that the theory had been completely debunked.

Clearly not.

There is an element with some people who like the idae of being "in the know" about something which everyone else knows is bollocks, the "I know something you don't know" thing. It's why relatively obscure scientific studies like this get trotted out, or we see any number of obscure rules being bought out when people get caught doing stuff. It's all hokey but it makes them feel powerful.

 

[Jackthelad]

A lot of children are being diagnosed with Autism, and there is still so much we don't know about Autism. We are getting parents who have nowhere to go to get help. These parents are scared out their minds about their young kids and how their life will change and often they get very little information from NHS, so where do they go they go to sites like Youtube and about Autism and often when you look at blogs about children and autism on youtube you will find "truther" comments" blaming vaccines that cause Autism and the "truthers" are often from Russia and Americans are getting brainwashed by them. It difficult for parents because often children who have Autism start to show they have autistic traits around the time they have their MMR vaccines so you get parents blame the vaccines. I know a fair few people that blame the vaccines for their kids autism.