miners may they rest in peace

[On the Left Wing]

Scargill's tactics were wrong and he was too filled up with his own arrogance - but his fight was in my opinion - and with the wisdom of hindsight - right.

He claimed Thatcher had a hit list of 63 (or was it 68?) pits which would close within five years. Thatcher and the Tory Government not only denied that claim but rubbished Scargill as a scaremonger and liar. So the miners were fighting for their jobs, their families and their comnunities. As time proved Scargill's claim to be correct.

IMHO the comparison with the Winter of Discontent in 1973 was a misnomer and a PR tool used to give Thatcher the bat to beat the NUM - this was a VERY different fight.

Having said all that, the tactics - and the decision not to resort to a UK wide secret ballot (nothing undemocratic about shows of hands - been used since the time of the Ancient Greeks!) - was the key which unlocked the case and led to the defeat of the NUM and 13 more years of Thatcherism/Majorism.

But thankfully those were different times

 

[London Irish]

You are truly one of the most patronising people I have ever "spoken" with. I hear you're a journalist, who do you claim to write for?

As I said, I agree that Unions have a right to organise and protect workers interests but they went too far and were shafting the country.I take it you enjoyed the Power Cuts? I'm sorry but I wouldn't be prepared to take that.

And don't try and talk down to me about "kindness" I have done numerous charity/community service projects . Don't judge me, cause you don't know me. I sympathise with the current situation, and I would say that the areas were starved of investment, but they were short sighted about the pits.

The miners chose the Unions to represent them and they went too far with the agenda. Look at Scargills attitude, he clearly had no intention of trying to reach agreement unless they got exactly what they want.

Your ignorance is truly appalling. The strike wasn't about more money or wanting greater political power, that was the mountain of lies printed by the Tory press. It was a defensive struggle to stop the Tories destroying miner's jobs and, more impotantly, their entire communities that this work was based on.

There have been numerous studies done on the impact on the miners' communities since the pits were closed. Huge increases in crime, drug addiction amongst the young, big rise in suicide rates - all the devastation that sudden poverty and mass unemployment brings to a community. All of this was forecast by the NUM leadership.

You are callously indifferent to any of these people's real lives ruined by this spiteful politically-motivated attack on the NUM. That is what you have said in your posts, you "don't give a toss", and that's why I look down on you for the heartless, amoral person that you are.

 

[enigma]

Clearly anyone that disagrees with your almighty opinion is wrong. I think you'll find its a matter of opinion and for you to call me ignorant is incredibly arrogant, I would never label you as ignorant. I think you look down on most people so it doesn't really bother me what you think of me.Who do you work for again? You seem cagey about answering that? Ashamed are we?

It is sad what happened but Scargill and his predecessors went too far, and lost power. They played the game and lost. They thought they could beat the Government. I would have far more sympathy if working relations had been good before and there hadn't been Power Cuts.Thus those who were happy for them to represent them are partly to blame for the situation. You cant attribute all the blame to Thatcher, even though I accept there was insufficient investment in the ex mining areas afterwards.I hope these areas improve in years to come, but I'd rather invest money in more deserving areas, such as East London.

Now if you don't mind I'm off to listen to Dizzee Rascal.

 

[London Irish]

It wasn't a "game" - people's lives were ruined. Grasp that point, if nothing else.

 

[enigma]

It was a metaphor.I have grasped your arguments, oh exalted hack, it's just that I don't agree with them.Please excuse me.

Seeing as you won't reveal who you "work" for, I'll assume you're unemployed. Not surprising given your patronising manner. Nighty night.

 

[London Irish]

It's remarkable that you "don't give a toss" about people's ruined lives but are utterly fascinated by my job status. What a strange set of values that is.

 

[enigma]

Its equally remarkable that you don't reveal it.

Ashamed?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

You left-wing pacifist queers make me sick. I support the hunts because they are part of our ENGLISH way of life.

Eh?

Coal mining has a far greater claim to be part of the English way of life than hunting. There were a million miners working in the UK in 1947 and many more people indirectly dependent on mining for their livelihoods.

Today, that industry is dead.

As for the NUM, I simply recall that Neil Kinnock used to quote his father as saying "Anyone can support the union when it's right. True solidarity is supporting the union when it's wrong".

 

[enigma]

Eh?

Coal mining has a far greater claim to be part of the English way of life than hunting. There were a million miners working in the UK in 1947 and many more people indirectly dependent on mining for their livelihoods.

Today, that industry is dead.

As for the NUM, I simply recall that Neil Kinnock used to quote his father as saying "Anyone can support the union when it's right. True solidarity is supporting the union when it's wrong".

very good point

 

[clapham_gull]

To bring the discussion back to Falmer, maybe the miners could have been re-employed in the wind farm industry....

... If not for f*cking NIMBYS who don't like their precious view disrupted by a clean source of electricity.

Maybe I think I've invented a game new game, "Seven Degress of Falmer NIMBY"

 

[London Irish]

Its equally remarkable that you don't reveal it.

Ashamed?

Yes, thoroughly. Now make sure you get a good night's sleep, we know you've got a hard day's sympathy for the "deserving" poor of the East End ahead of you.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

As for the NUM, I simply recall that Neil Kinnock used to quote his father as saying "Anyone can support the union when it's right. True solidarity is supporting the union when it's wrong".

solidarity or stupidity ?

 

[Uncle Buck]

Clearly anyone that disagrees with your almighty opinion is wrong.

Welcome to NSC....

 

[London Calling]

The power cuts were a indirect result of Miners going on strike., but they went on strike for a decent wage. The main reeson why they won their demands in 72 and 74. Because the UK population supported their action. This was bourne out in the 74 election, which was called on the back of the strike. Heath (Conservatives) went to the Polls. Labour won.

Conservatives and Thatcher were extremely pissed off with"

Heath
Labour
NUM.

1979 the conservatives got rid of Heath, then Labour. In 1983 it was the Argies and that left the NUM.

It was nothing to do with economics it was a political war. The dispute was forced onto the Coalboard by the Government. Never before had the Police operated nationally but this time they were used as front line troops.

Yes, Scargill was an arongant tosser. His tactics were appalling. He let the Government set the agenda, the ground and the timing of the dispute. Poor tactics for any General (as he obviously saw himself)

To go on strike in March was madness, recognised as madness by everyone.

Not to stay as a collective with the pit deputies (NACODS) was Madness. Whilst the NACODs were on strike, it was illegal for ordinary mine workers to
go underground.

Nevertheless the conditions of the ex pit towns and villages are not so different from the concrete blocks of East London. One population does not deserve more or less sympathy ( of which neither communities would want).

It is often forgotten that mining communities were migrant workers. The Kent coalfield were mainly Durham and Scottish miners. It was often funny listening to the broad range of accents in that area combined with "cockney" last generation miners born in the area.

Working down the pits were a dangerious and not a well paid job.

A phased gradual reduction would have acceptable. It would have happened with the privatisation of the Gas and Electric industries.

To close down pits in the parts of the countries with the highest unemployment rates, in a middle of a recession was totally evil and economic madness. There link here with East London and the demise of the docks.

In EAST LONDON THERE IS STILL A CORE OF LONG TERM UNEMPLOYED MALES, who have not worked since the docks have closed. There are generations of families with no working members.

If these industries must be closed they need to be undertaken with a planned retraining programme, business support, industrial infrastructure in place.

LC

 

[enigma]

The power cuts were a indirect result of Miners going on strike., but they went on strike for a decent wage. The main reeson why they won their demands in 72 and 74. Because the UK population supported their action. This was bourne out in the 74 election, which was called on the back of the strike. Heath (Conservatives) went to the Polls. Labour won.

Conservatives and Thatcher were extremely pissed off with"

Heath
Labour
NUM.

1979 the conservatives got rid of Heath, then Labour. In 1983 it was the Argies and that left the NUM.

It was nothing to do with economics it was a political war. The dispute was forced onto the Coalboard by the Government. Never before had the Police operated nationally but this time they were used as front line troops.

Yes, Scargill was an arongant tosser. His tactics were appalling. He let the Government set the agenda, the ground and the timing of the dispute. Poor tactics for any General (as he obviously saw himself)

To go on strike in March was madness, recognised as madness by everyone.

Not to stay as a collective with the pit deputies (NACODS) was Madness. Whilst the NACODs were on strike, it was illegal for ordinary mine workers to
go underground.

Nevertheless the conditions of the ex pit towns and villages are not so different from the concrete blocks of East London. One population does not deserve more or less sympathy ( of which neither communities would want).

It is often forgotten that mining communities were migrant workers. The Kent coalfield were mainly Durham and Scottish miners. It was often funny listening to the broad range of accents in that area combined with "cockney" last generation miners born in the area.

Working down the pits were a dangerious and not a well paid job.

A phased gradual reduction would have acceptable. It would have happened with the privatisation of the Gas and Electric industries.

To close down pits in the parts of the countries with the highest unemployment rates, in a middle of a recession was totally evil and economic madness. There link here with East London and the demise of the docks.

In EAST LONDON THERE IS STILL A CORE OF LONG TERM UNEMPLOYED MALES, who have not worked since the docks have closed. There are generations of families with no working members.

If these industries must be closed they need to be undertaken with a planned retraining programme, business support, industrial infrastructure in place.

LC

Fair enough Londons calling, I accept your arguments even if I don't agree with everything.Good comparison with East London, although I think the rich-poor gap in London makes things that much worse, even allowing for the better transport and opportunities. When you consider some of the Estates, the gun crime and the black/white/asian gangs, it makes it more depressing area for me. At least you argue in a way that is civilised unlike that miserable, failed hack.

Actually I had a day at university ahead of me, how about you? I see that you posted at 3am, no work the next morning? Did your interpersonal skills fail you at the interview? You clearly look upon yourself as a paragon of morality, I however do not and as I have stated some of the porblems these places have they brought upon themselves.I have no shame in saying that.

In any case, its all a matter of opinion. Although I disagree with you and regard you as a twat, I respect your opinion.Respect mine.

 

[Uncle Buck]

In any case, its all a matter of opinion. Although I disagree with you and regard you as a twat, I respect your opinion.Respect mine.

You have 2 hopes. He should be back from his airport run soon, this will be fun....

 

[enigma]

There's nothing more to be said. I understand his side of the argument, and perhaps what I said was a bit strong initially, but its my opinion.I refuse to be patronised by someone for having a different opinion to them.

 

[London Irish]

I have no shame in saying that.

Oh, I think you do, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so defensive. You don't even have the guts to repeat your statement that you "don't give a toss" about the miner's suffering, do you? A bit strong you now say? Yes, just a little.

As for me bring a "twat", yes, feel free to show us some more gems you've gleaned from your university education.

 

[London Irish]

Yes, Scargill was an arongant tosser. His tactics were appalling. He let the Government set the agenda, the ground and the timing of the dispute. Poor tactics for any General (as he obviously saw himself)

To go on strike in March was madness, recognised as madness by everyone.

Not to stay as a collective with the pit deputies (NACODS) was Madness. Whilst the NACODs were on strike, it was illegal for ordinary mine workers to go underground.

LC, I obviously agree with the vast majority of what you say here but I disagree with your opinion of Scargill. You are right, the government provoked the dispute with the provocation of the closure of Cortonwood.

The problem was, there was an agreed policy that a strike would be called to defend those first selected by the coal board to be victimised. The union leadership (and it was a collective leadership, it is just the tabloid press that pretends one man ran the union because it's easier obviously for the purposes of tabloid fodder journalism to demonise one man than an entire collective leadership), the union leadership had given a pledge to defend the Cortonwood workers.

They were faced with the choice of abandoning their Cortonwood brothers or calling the strike. They chose the principles of solidarity, an injury to one is an injury to all, as their guide. I don't think they had any other choice.

If the NUM had backed down over Cortonwood, then Thatcher would have pressed ahead instantly with far more sweeping closures knowing the union had no stomach for a fight. There would have been a strike at that time, come what may, Thatcher would have engineered it, because her sole motivation was not the best energy policy for Britain, but to smash a group of workers who had some power to stand up to the chaos and destruction she was wreaking on Britain with her attacks on the poor and her deliberate policy of mass unemployment.

The NUM leadership tried their damndest to stay united with NACODS leaders. But like the Nottingham scabs, they were bought off by Thatcher and the coal board, a good investment if it meant the NUM was isolated. The NUM warned NACODS that pit closures would devastate their membership. Within a few years of the strike and with mass pit closure programme under way, it was not the NUM leadership that was proven wrong, but the NACODS leadership as they were powerless to prevent huge job losses for their members.

The miners' strike of 84-85 was an engineered attack by the British Establishment on one of the few groups of workers who had the capability to defend themselves.

The smashing of the NUM weakened us all, because it gave Thatcher the green light to press on with her hideous policies of encouraging a wider gap between rich and poor, benefit cuts for the weakest in society, massive underfunding for education meaning huge increases in class sizes for your kids and mine, massive underfunding and creeping privatisation of the health service, tax cuts for the rich, the poll tax, the removal of any state support for university students, encouraging colleges once more to become finishing schools for the middle class.

All that was the legacy of the defeat of the NUM. That's why it was vital back then to support the miners and once they were beaten, many of the weakest parts of Britain were left defenceless.

 

[London Calling]

Fair enough Londons calling, I accept your arguments even if I don't agree with everything.Good comparison with East London, although I think the rich-poor gap in London makes things that much worse, even allowing for the better transport and opportunities. When you consider some of the Estates, the gun crime and the black/white/asian gangs, it makes it more depressing area for me. At least you argue in a way that is civilised unlike that miserable, failed hack.

Actually I had a day at university ahead of me, how about you? I see that you posted at 3am, no work the next morning? Did your interpersonal skills fail you at the interview? You clearly look upon yourself as a paragon of morality, I however do not and as I have stated some of the porblems these places have they brought upon themselves.I have no shame in saying that.

In any case, its all a matter of opinion. Although I disagree with you and regard you as a twat, I respect your opinion.Respect mine.

Interestingly I posted this at 9.48 before going out on site. I am actually working in the Olympic Zone, as you will know, in the heart of the East End. An area I have worked in with the unemployed, on the worst estates and with businesses over the last 13 years.

Before that I worked with the biggest mining community in the Country.

I was actually comparing like with like. Your opionion is your own. Thanks for regarding me as twat.

LC